I strongly oppose a Turkish leadership at this time.

Turkey refuses to withdraw it's forces from Cyprus.
Turkey is in a civil war against the Kurds.
Turkey commited many atrocities against the Kurds and refuses apologize and pay compensation.
Turkey oppresses it's kurdish population.
Turkey denies the genocide on the Armenians.
Many turkish women are suppressed, murdered because they were raped or wanted their own personal freedom.
Corruption is horrible in Turkey. There are cases in which the police constantly abducts people, mainly female, and rapes and/or tortures them.
There is no freedom of speech in Turkey.
Turkey's financial situation is even worse than Germanies or even Greece's.

It might be true that Turkey recently has made many archievements in becoming more european, but the turkish civil population is far from central- and west-european standards when it comes to human rights. Turkey simply is not ready yet to join the Union, just like the Union isn't ready to integrate Turkey yet. We already made a big mistake to let Romania and Bulgaria in so quickly, one must imagine there's even slavery still today in Bulgaria. Maybe one day, when the turkish people is less violent, less history-denying and less corruption-ignoring, they are ready to join the Union. But certainly not now.

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I think that these contries are not religious.

In Spain, only 15% of the catholics practises their religion, and most of the religious catholics are old persons.

http://www.comayala.es/Libros/epm/epm.htm
http://www.levante-emv.es/secciones/...Ejemplar=2863&
(The links are in spanish, sorry).

Here is an interesting world map from the wikipedia about the importance of the religion. As you can see, in the UK the religion is even more important than in Italy. (No comments about the US).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...importance.PNG

Unfortunately, the somewhat high scores for UK and Germany might be explained in terms of Muslims accounting for > 10 per cent of the population

Which high scores in Germany?

WRT UK, its not their Turkish community (They really have that many??), its their hope to harm the political integration by getting Turkey intot the Union. Or said in another way: The UK could not stop it alone, now it is looking for reinforcement. Thats a heck of a different kind of motivation.

What I was saying was that the huge Muslim (not necesasarily Turkish) minority in Britain and Germany explains in part why so many people believe that religion is important.

As for Turkish membership, it should be out of the question. The most populous EU-memberstate would then be Muslim. Muslim and European are to things apart. It always was, and it always will be.

Wrong, Turkey is not the most popolous. Germany is significantly larger. If you, and this is speculation, talk about how it looks like in a few decades it might be correct though. But by then Turkey will be allready a member for quite some time, or not becoming a member anymore. (alternative "solution" found)

Again, I dont understand your argument. Germany is one of the most Turkey enlargement countries in Europe. The current governing party made it very clear that its the opposite of a fan of the enlargement and would prefer to chancel it if it could. (ie "privileged partnership" for Turkey)

The UK on the other side has a rather small Turkish minority and I dont know if you know, but the trench between muslims from different ethnicity is even larger than the between them and the locals. I know this from the region where I live. Turkish and arab muslims hardly speak a word with each other and even have different mosques, and this allthough the arab minority is quite small.

Anyway, this is moreover a nongoer because the muslim citizens have the same position as the majority within the UK. Both support the admission of Turkey. The Britains support it for the reasons I wrote allready before.

Ok, Germany is 10 per cent more populous than Turkey, but in ten-fifteen years the balance will have changed. But that really isn't my point. To include a Muslim country into a European community built around superior Western civilization, norms and values is wrong. I, alongside the majority of EU, cannot regard Turkey as a Europan country, and thus they should be excluded for applying. Turkey, like Russia, always were (Western) Europe's Other, an enemy and a rival. Never a friend. As for Turks versus other Muslims, I can imagine that since the former are Turks and the latter mostly Arabs or other non-Turks, then a trench is quite logical. But in my society as well as in your society, all Muslims whether Pakistani, Turkish, Arab or whatever more or less are the same: a Muslim minority. I know that I'll always regard them as non-compatriots and foreigners no matter how much they internalize our lifestyle, norms and values. The same goes for Turkey in the EU: a non-European misplaced member-state with which I share nothing at all.

To be exact its 15% more. But what does it change? Its quite irrelevant, as Turkey can not do anything within the EU if it wants to play rambo; nothing at all. They can have double as much people as Germany and still will be one player among many. And for vetoing decissions were a veto is possible, the number of inhabitants is meaningless. Malta is as powerfull as Turkey will be on this.

Superior western culture? Superior in what exactly according to your opinion? I would prefer to say, currently on the top, still. It will not stay that way. It would be a premiere in history and its megalomania to think the western civilisation has halted history. The Islamic civilisation was on the top just 500 years ago who says they wont claim that place once again?

Btw, Turkey is by far more part of the western world than the arabic one.


You know, I oppose the admission of Turkey too, but obviously for completely other reasons. Not because I think we should not let some "inferior civilisation" into the Union.

Your position is quite frightening, especially that you even rule out the mere possibility of muslim person (the differentiations into Turks or Arabs or Shiits, shiitic Arabs etc, seems to be of little meaning for you anyway) to become a real compatriot, simply because of his religion.

You know how this is called? Its not only intollerance, its xenophoby. Its what we can thank half of our wars of the last centuries to.

Because of people who think so, parties like the FPÖ exist.


PS:
Turkey was a loyal allied of Austria in WWI. (In contrast to Italy) Both countries were interacting very cordially to each others at this time.

Crikey - should we really basing the decision to accept Turkey into the EU on on political, historical and racial grounds? Ask yourself some important questions, do they play in European football? Do they take part in the Eurovision song contest? The answer to both is YES, your arguments against accession are all invalid, Turkey already IS in Europe...

On that basis, so is Israel......

Sandman

To whom did you respond to? Anyway.

I think the EU should not accept the admission of countries that are currently in the state of civil war. So alone due to this Turkey and Israel should be not accepted.

Concerning Israel, I think this is a nongoer, because neither the EU nor Israel want it.

WRT Turkey, its not about races or religion. Its about the fact that the EU currently is not able to cope with such a big new member. I am not even talking about the problematic of being European or not. Turkey is to quite a large extend "European" at least Istanbul and other cities are, which is allready quite much.

But from the other posts I read from you hear, you would feal totally comfortable with the EU breaking down due to the lack of reform that would adopt its functionality to its size while not stopping enlargement.

Slarti

Want the EU to fail? ....Au contraire,

Poland, and the rest of the recent accession states are vast in numbers, so the scale of Turkish accession shouldnt be a problem.

I fear religious polorisation from the major christian states of the EU is the problem with Turkish accession - they are just 'too different' for many.....

I think Turkish accession would be good - firstly it would get the turkish state to adjust its human rights problems (it has already done a lot), and would then give the EU a doorway to the middle east, good for trade and good for relations with the middle east.

And I dont want The EU to fail, I just dont want a federal Europe. I love the different nationalities of Europe the way they are, and dont feel that further blurring of our diverse cultures, by homogonising laws, social policy, and foreign policy would be a good thing.

Sandman

Your argument is like saying, the double ultra size big mac menu was vast, so it should be no problem to eat directly afterwards, another one, of the same size but instead of 2litres coke just 1,5.

Counting enlargement in numbers only, is a bit easy also. The current enlargement included countries that were allthough they have much to cover up, considerably wealthier than Turkey is in average. Thats a fact. Another one is, religion ignored or hysterically feared, that Turkey is a much more diverse candiate from the norm than those central European canditates that where allways in the heart of Europe and most of them (except the majority of Poland) even part of the Austrian monarchy. Its simply logical that the more diverse the members are the more tensions will arise. You dont have to be a rocket scientist to see that.

And now the major point. It has been the official line that the EU needs a clean up, and it needs it urgently. Read it where you like, they all said we need a reformation before the next enlargement, and like it or not this clean up and reformation has been postponed or even cancelled (the name of it is/was "constitution"). And the point is, that this is not even the reform needed for the next enlargement (Turkey). No, its the one that was allready needed for the last enlargment (central European countries), but failed allready before that one. Now after Europe seems to fail again, with 10 members additionally, to cover up with the reform, you tell me, that its not so important, for sure we will be able to fix it, with even one another huge member in a even far more diverse Union? Come on. If Europe fails allready now to come up with a reform its time for a brake until it succeeds, otherwise and thats a promise, the EU will fail. And if it really f**** up, than even your Single market you do not oppose that much will go to hell.

Its not really in Britains interest to cause a severe European crises. You dont harm the continent alon, you harm Europe, and like it or not you are part of it, at least economically you cant talk around that. Its only that Britains seem not to see that. They really seem to believe, you can to enlarge and enlarge and enlarge, until the Union is downgraded again to what they think is a comfortable teethless tariff talk club.

Before you do that, I would really plea at you, that you leave the political union you seem to hate that much and make it like Norway. Better an EU without Britain, than no EU at all. (or one that goes from Lissabon to Timbuktu)

Dont get me wrong, I can see the postive sides of an Turkey joining. But unlike many Britains, I also am realistically enough to see that the EU we have today is simply incapable to cope with yet another large enlargement. Allready the last one, enlarged it right before bouncing.

My position is not that complex. Just tackle the reform that is already promised for years, and then we can talk about further enlargment up to the borders of Europe. (That means if Turkey holds it promise to Europeanize further they are included, but nothing outside of Europe unless the European citizens would demand so by majority in a referendum)

Slarti

Not sure what you mean by clean up or reformation, presumably you mean with policies such as the CAP and fisheries rather than people or religion? If you mean integration, then what do you think the accession states want? The deepening of political theory and practice, or simply more money through better trade?

Sandman

Yes, CAP is a pretty messed up stuff, Fischler could reform it a little bit, in order that its at least not as messed up as 10 years before, but still. I dont know enough about the fishery policies to judge it. I just know that the need for a single fishery policy can be very logically argumented, as there is just one atlantic, east-sea and north sea etc, not every member state has its own one. But as I said, I dont know how good it works as it is right now.
Cleaning up, was not just about certain issues, but the whole institutional constituation as such. The European Parliament needs to become a full parliament, it allready has left the area of "joke-insitutions" and learned to use the powers it got in the 90's. Nowadays its allready a major actor in the EU decission finding process, just look at the lobby groups in Brussels. They are a very clear indicator of where power is at home. And the fact that they more and more target at the Parliament hardly happens randomly. Still it has to gain more powers, there must be not 1/4 of political issues, where the Parliament still can be overvoted by the others. It has to get more power in the election of the Commission etc.

Thats one point, and its not the least one as its essential for constructing not only a united Europe but also a democratic one. I know Britons dont care much for that, they prefer to lie all powers withint he hands of the governments, in order that those governments sit togeter and decide on international level the issues, that on national level all the other institutions have to follow. As you can not abolish the need for international cooperation, even if you ruin the EU, you funnily will get even less democracy if you ruin the EU, not more. The EU is somewhat democratic, international cooperation in the depth like it will be allways necessary in a small stated Europe is not much democratic at all. There is no rule of law, just of the stronger.

Another point would be to streamline the decission making process, the vetoes have to be reduced to those issues that are really of fundamentally importance for the members, like going to war or significant decissions of another form. Otherwise an EU will become ungovernable with 30 members, well, you like to hear that, but you wont like the consequences of a European economic crises as the consequence of an severe political one. You know that goes hand in hand.

Apart from principal stuff like that, one would have to get a reform on the issues of the EU. We need a powerfully European scientific program, thats no question, talking about national egoism on a field where size simply matters is pure stupidity, as all members will profitate from that. We need a real single universitary space in Europe (ok that last one is not in that bad constituency anyway, we are making progress here), Furthermore, the Euro zone needs actually more than teethless somewhat criterias, we would need a coherent economic politcy. ....

Well, not all of the issues has to be addressed though, now immideately. More importantly is that the EU framework is kept functionally, than the tackling of the issues we see and the problems we have will be possible as well in most cases.

I apologize but I will address Turkey, not that of UK or Germany or........Ataturk did his best to bring Turkey into modern times. He eliminated the veil, latinized the writing, gave women the vote and forced all to use western dress. All that is well and good, but unfortunately it is back sliding. Recently the country is becoming more sectarian, to include the wearing of head scarves by women. Recently a young woman was attacked on a Turkish beach for wearing a bikini; when this woman asked some head scarf wearing woman to not litter the beach with dirty diapers, she was attacked and beaten by a group of men calling her a whore and other insults.

So I say if you are afraid of Islam then they should not be eligable.

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