yep But it requires someone to get rid of its prejudices first and then to look at the matters without being selective for which someone,whose favourite parc is called Türkenschanzpark, doesn’t seem to be either ready or willing yet.


yep, let us do couple and not one

Try flying to Athens, burning the Greek flag, alongside a big portrait of Jesus Christ whilst calling him stupid names (God Forbid) in the middle of some nice public area , make a speech telling them why it is a place of evil and damning Greeks and Greece and remind them some of their past atrocities and some 17 Great Mosques that no longer exist in that beautiful city.

Also keep in my mind how your countrymen, Gerhard Haderer, was awarded without even flying there and now feel free to speculate on having fun at legal matters .

Gerhard Haderer's depiction of Christ as a binge-drinking friend of Jimi Hendrix and naked surfer high on cannabis has caused a furore that could potentially land the cartoonist in jail.
Haderer did not even know that his book, The Life of Jesus, had been published in Greece until he received a summons to appear in court in Athens in January charged with blasphemy.

He was given a six-month suspended sentence in absentia, but if he loses his appeal next month his sentence could be increased to two years.

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/news/stor...443908,00.html


Also speaking of flag burning, just after reading your post I had some interesting conversations with my Canadian mates, who told that one could face up to 2 years for burning Canadian flag which perhaps might make you think that Austria is more democratic and civilized than Canada As it is a personal story and I am too lazy at the moment to dig for back up on this, I can understand that it might not be of much importance to you.

As regards Ataturk, (and not Attaturk) I wonder sometimes why it bothers some westerners so much that Ataturk may not be critisized enough in Turkey, but thanks to certain circles (anti-secularist islamists and some EU-funded "second republicists") attack him freely and frequently in Turkey , they even have papers where they can bash Ataturk and his reforms on a daily bases.

WRT your comparison of Ataturk versus Mozart/Kreisky, it is indeed a poor and irrelevant one and on par with the apple orange story and I don’t know whether to cry or laugh at it.

As for the Armenian issue it is debated so many times on tvs,papers, books and Armenian claims are being voiced in every platform in Turkey. Perhaps our famous novelist could not find enough time to turn on the tv or read papers or books , since he claimed he is the first one to ever mention that, which is ridiculous.


For Dimitris Kitsikiz case :
Türk-Yunan ilişkilerinde Batı Trakya Türkleri sorunu ,
İstanbul : INAF Uluslararası İlişkiler Ajansı, 1989. . page 27

Yunanistan ve terör. Ankara : Kıbrıs Türk Kültür Derneği, 1986 Page56

For the kebab restaurant, it was my intention to add some satire, I said you might be (which is true), not thinking that I made it sound like an actual event,
the important point is the use of the word Turk/ Turkish. You could read from my other posts.

The government’s refusal to accept the minority’s Turkish identity has ranged from banning civic organizations bearing the adjective “Turkish” in their titles to prosecuting individuals who publicly identified the minority as “Turkish.”39 Greek courts have outlawed the use of the word "Turkish" to describe the Turkish minority. In November 1987, the Greek High Court affirmed a 1986 decision by the Court of Appeals of Thrace in which the Union of Turkish Teachers of Western Thrace and the Union of Turkish Youth of Komotini were dissolved. The court held that the word "Turkish" referred to citizens of Turkey and could not be used to describe citizens of Greece, and that the use of the word "Turkish" to describe Greek Muslims endangered public order.40 More recently, in August 1996, Mr. Rasim Hid, a teacher at a minority primary school, was transferred by the state-appointed secretary general of the region from the city of Xanthi to a mountain region of Rodopi for using the term “Turkish school” in a teachers’ meeting.41 In June 1997, twelve ethnic Turkish teachers were given a suspended sentence of eight months, pending appeal, because they signed a union document that included the term, “Turkish Teachers of Western Thrace.” 42 They had been indicted under Articles 188 (“participating in an association the aims of which are contrary to criminal provisions”) and 192 (“inciting citizens to commit acts of violence upon each other”) of the Greek Penal Code.43…


No , because there is not, apart from the subject, place and actor difference. Another difference is that the latter has not been publicized and nor the trial case was bombarded by the good-intentioned EU mps. That’s why you probably heard of it for the first time.


Nonsense and ignorance. You might be right, had the the 4th part of the article 301 (the law you are talking about) not said :
"Elestiri amaciyla yapilan düsünce aciklamalari suc olusturmaz."

Meaning :

Expression of a thought that is meant as critisism cannot be seen as a criminal act.


You just think like you thought of any Kurd born in Turkey to be unlucky or dozens of people, who supported the Armenian claims, as stupid.


Greece: Trial against Professor Takis Alexiou continues

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index...pen&of=ENG-GRC


As early as 1990 they invited Armenian historians to Ankara to discuss the matter,but just one of them, Professor Marashlian, attended to it. In the recent years Turkey officially offered to establish a commission joint by historians and jurists to discuss the matter and publicly acknowledge the result of their findings and to admit genocide if that’s the result. What better chance than this you can find to convince public opinion in Turkey if that is really happened ? Another attempt by a handful of Austrian scholars to bring both sides together was also cancelled after the Armenian side withdrawn :

Here is another impression by another journalist about a recent conference :

http://www.welt.de/data/2006/03/20/862391.html

Whether Turkey is an invention of a single man or the result of some intellectual movements dating back to Tanzimat period or the era of Mithad Pasha remains open to scholarly debate, you are way out of your debt and simply not competent to make such judgements.


It already is and a rather sad part of our history.




You are exaggrating as usual The late Turgut Ozal dismissed an army General from his position, later 1990s and especially during the time of Erbakan’s religous party ,which was closed by the court (also approved by ECHR), they abused their powers at times. Your charge of “it is totally out of democratic control” has even no valid back up in the recent. As far as I remember it was the parliament of Turkish republic that rejected the law proposition the join USA in iraq war although the army supported the join. Still it was the parliament that approved the Annan Plan over Cyprus disputed although the army objected. These all don’t seem to reflect an organisation
“totally out of democratic control” Heck, it is on par with your previous remarks : “the bad luck to be born as Kurd” ,” so stupid as to mention the genocide on the Armenians". Oh yeah, your favourite parc is Türkenschanzpark and you also lectured some obsessed guy on xenophobia, you must be feeling so eloquent now


Same argument could be made in an exaggerated fashion,about the position of Church in Greece( YES, a member state of the EU) for which I am too tired .

Nice post and very informative to those not familaiar with Turkey or its politics. Now do you have any info on a proposal made back in mid to late 1990's about a Middle East Union, as such? If so do you have a link I could go to? I would appreciate any help you could give. thanx

__________________
http://vladtheagitator.blogsource.com

Never do anything against conscience, even if the state demands it. Albert Einstein

We Americans have NO commission from God to police the world. Pres. Benjamin Harrison

Slower Minds --Keep Right

Politics is war without bloodshed; war is politics with bloodshed

Thanks. Honestly I dont know about the middle east union proposal made in 1990s, all i know is that the late president Turgut Ozal tried to establish some projects on water distribution(from rivers inside Turkey) to middle east and tried to bring Arabs and Israel together for the negotiations firstly for the necessary funds to cary out the projects and later for the political dialogue to reach a common point over the disputes, which didnt work...but it was more in the late 80s. I will try to look for more information though...

Thank you--I would appreciate any assistence from you. I am writing a paper on the possiblity of a Middle East Union and would like to see if a past proposal may be of help. Thanks again.

__________________
http://vladtheagitator.blogsource.com

Never do anything against conscience, even if the state demands it. Albert Einstein

We Americans have NO commission from God to police the world. Pres. Benjamin Harrison

Slower Minds --Keep Right

Politics is war without bloodshed; war is politics with bloodshed

Never, Turkey is not a European Country. Hell if we allow Turkey, why not than Marocco, Algiers, Israel and even USA.

__________________
Hier ons bloed. Wanneer ons recht
Here our blood. When our right

here is one :
TURKISH WATER EXPORTS: A MODEL FOR REGIONAL
COOPERATION IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF WATER
RESOURCES
George E. Gruen, Professor Emeritus of International Relations,
Columbia University Middle East Institute
http://www.ipcri.org/watconf/papers/george.pdf

Depends on this mysterious description of being European. For if it is geography Cyprus is not in Europe, netiher closer to it than Turkey is.



For if it is culture, the supposition rests on a logical fallacy that ignores the existing differences among member states or existing closer similarities between Turkey and member states( Greece, for instance, and Bulgaria is on the way also).

The only difference is religion, so far they have not been brave enough to admit this, and keep using fraudulent words to disguise some astonishing feelings. They are also quite carefull in the recent, almost all opponents of Turkish entry, start their speeches/interviews with emphasizing that they like Turkish people and its culture

Cultural diffrentials among with `gate´ to Europe should be more than adequate reasons not to allow Turkey to join. Religion folds into cultural heritage.
Get your human rights in order, do not flow Europe with millions of immigrants and stop harassing Greece, invading Cyprus. Then I might look at Turkeys joining with easy eyes.

Yes, sir, would like to have a coffe as well ?

Speaking of harassing Greece, it was a Greek minister, Melina Mercury that disturbed maps of Turkey divided into a number of pieces and with the pieces distributed to a number of neighbouring countries among them Greece, herself.

Here is the evidence of your human rights which is supposedly in "order" posing with the terroists :


GREEK PARLIAMENTARIANS VISITING THE HEAD OF PKK TERRORIST ORGANIZATION


Generals of an EU member, training terrorists, oh scandalous, oh yeah Human Rights


And last time i checked it was Greek Cypriots who refused Annan Plan over the dispute, which otherwise would result in the withdrawing of Turkish troops in a significant number.

The ex-President of your country,Martii Ahtisaari, has a rather different story to tell :

Last year the EU foreign ministers at a meeting on Meis Island concerning Romania, Bulgaria and Turkey's EU membership, said, "We'll ask you a question and if you know the answer, you will become an EU member."
The Bulgarian foreign minister was asked, "When was the first atomic bomb dropped?"
"1945," he answered. Bulgaria then became an EU member.
The Romanian foreign minister was then asked, "Where was the first atomic bomb dropped?"
"Hiroshima," he answered. Romania duly became an EU member too.
Then it was the turn of Foreign Minister Gul, who was asked, "Can you tell us the names and ages of those who died in Hiroshima?"

Sounds like you are worried about racial balance not necessarily the location of the country.

__________________
http://vladtheagitator.blogsource.com

Never do anything against conscience, even if the state demands it. Albert Einstein

We Americans have NO commission from God to police the world. Pres. Benjamin Harrison

Slower Minds --Keep Right

Politics is war without bloodshed; war is politics with bloodshed

Location IS one thing, cultural differentials another. We do not have too many honour-murders.
Racism has nothing to do with the worry of tidal-wave of immigrants, who would use Turkey as a Gate to Europe. Boldest calculators say that the number of people flowing to European territory would be over 25 million. It would be simply too many to support by all or any European nation.
If we really do not want to fall because of this, we are hardly racists.

These "so-called" honour killings are as much Turkish culture as the racism, nazism, fascism is the culture of Europeans.


pure absurdity

Who cares. The fact is that Turkey still denies the Armenian genocide ever existed. How can a nation kill around 1.5 million Armenians and over 300,000 Greeks and then complain about there treatment in other countries. I'm pretty sure Palestinian issues get coverage on US and Isreali TV's, does that make there treatment of Palestine acceptable?


Greeks in Turkey were not allowed to own land and had to pay more Tax called a "Fortune Tax", and Turks are complaing about the Greeks using the term 'Turks' for Turkish citizens and not for Thraces Muslim population, which 50% is of non-Turkish extraction, mainly Pomaks and Roma. (according to some statistics) 120,000 "Turks" can live in Greece and be free to speak there language at Greek funded Turkish speaking schools and are free to there religious beliefs. There are 235 primary schools in Thrace which teaches in Turkish, there are also numerous Secondary schools which teaches the Koran in Arabic for the Muslim population. The Greek government not only finances the schools but finances the travel expenses of Muslims who live to far from Muslim schools costing roughly 195,000 USD a year for travel expenses alone. Also there are over 300 Mosques in Thrace alone. Let compare this to Greeks in Turkey, where today there only 5,000 in Istanbul, down from over 200,000, while the Turkish population of Thrace has remianed pretty much the same. You complain about Turkish mosques being destroyed when Agia Sofia, one the world most famous Churches was deface, vandalised and turned into a mosque. Also in the Istanbul riots of 1955 alone 73 churches were destroyed or burnt.

The fact is that Turkey officially offered to establish commission for the solution of the Armenian matter and to admit genocide if it is their finding .And I don’t see any justification for recognition. And it is not like Turkey disputes it alone. Like it or not, A significant number of western scholars rejects the term genocide for the terrible events that Armenians had undergone. Among them distinguished scholars such as Roderic Davison, J.C. Hurewitz, Bernard Lewis , Andrew Mango, or Gilles Veinstein of France de College and the late Elie Kedourie of London School of Economics.

"(The) United Nations has not approved or endorsed a
report labeling the Armenian experience as Genocide."

Farhan Haq, U.N. spokesman, October 5th, 2000.



And tell me Mr Moralist, if you so concerned about the memory of victims, what do you call ultra-fascist Greek Cyrpriot President Tassos Papadopulous’ claim that “no Turk has ever been killed between 1963 and 1974” ?

Thank you for revealing your true intentions Yes a whole nation is responsible and it is an excuse to violate the human rights of a people who had been involved neither with Armenian affair nor with Greek dreams.

As for how they do it, maybe the same way Greeks and Armenians does with the 2,5 million muslim civilan deaths at the same period.

The main plot of this discussion was about free speech and not about whether the treatment of Armenians were justified or it was something wrong. Juxtaposing events and then giving lectures is not a wise idea that the one can offer, as I see it, you are quite good at it.

Greeks were allowed to own land individually but not through community or religious foundations, which also years ago changed in accordance with EU demands and something that Greece stil didnt change [ vakifs]

Yes the “varlik vergisi” was a stupid and notorious one and obviously discriminative that target the non-muslim minorities and caused much of our non-moslem minorities to feel they are not welcomed anymore .

If it had been merely a matter of Greek usage, it would have been fine with me. It is far beyond than what you claim it to be. It is preventing people who desire to use it, and sometimes prisoning it. What is more, Greece is only very recently relaxing its policies which previously denied even the Turkish identity of the people, and it had been the only country I knew of, which announces that It has no ethnic minorities, only Moslem Greeks Macedonian Greeks. It is as stupid as some Turkish military members' calling Kurds, mountain Turks, in the past.


This figure is from where exactly ?

Yes, the Moslems living in Greece might differ in ethnicity, the same holds true also for the Greek community in Turkey which included many “ethnic” Turks who followed the Church of Pavli Pope Eftim and not Phanariot. But it is not a justification for imprisoning people who identify themselves and their fellows as Turkish, like what Greece has done to Sadik Ahmet.

Leaving aside the accuracy of your figures, it seems that you don’t know or care about the feelings of non-Turkish muslims:

Most of the Muslim minority (officially estimated to number 130,000) are ethnically Turkish or Turcophone and live in Thrace. The Muslim minority also includes Pomaks and Roma. Many Muslims, including Pomaks, identified themselves as Turks and say that the Muslim minority as a whole has a Turkish cultural consciousness.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2002/18368.htm


the group overwhelmingly identifies itself as Turkish.34 Indeed many Pomaks and Romas will, especially to outsiders, even deny their ethnolinguistic origin in the belief that being called “Pomaks” or “Romas” is merely a state artifice to suppress them.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/gree...htm#P225_36797

Now you can suffice it to the fact that in 1950s Greek Government itself officially used the term Turkish for minority.

The Laussane treaty clearly grants the Turkish minority the right to organize and conduct religious affairs free from government interference, since 1985 the government of Greece has directly appointed—against the wishes of the overwhelming majority of ethnic Turks—the community’s religious leaders (mufti).

Since the Turkish community did not recognize the State-appointed mufti, it held its unofficial elections and elected Mehmet Emin Aga who was imprisoned 6 months as a consequence, in the following years he was again sentenced to prison with the punishment either suspended or converted to fine. Amnesty International declared him to be a prisoner of conscience.


The problems that minority members face, the low quality of schools, and whether their rights respected or not is well addressed in the links. However ever since Yorgo Papandreu’s ruling, Greece relaxed its policies and the condition of minority somewhat improved, I would give you that.


Well done and very nice of them, if it is true

The Greek journalist Yorgo Kirbaki says, many mosques are not mosques in the classical sense, but the apartments converted to public worship houses and it “reuires at least a 1000 witness to call it a house of worship” to use his own words.
http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=121838


[quote]let compare this to Greeks in Turkey, [quote]

Greeks in İstanbul are allowed to elect their own religious leader and carry out their religious and national cermenonies unlike the Turks of Greece whose festivals at various places are prevented and religious leaders are rigorously prosecuted and jailed under one pretext or another and had been beaten several times:

Mehmet Emin Aga, elected mufti of the Turkish minority.






Now feel happy he wont be much problem for Greece anymore, as he passed away 12 days ago, may god bless his soul.


The figures are disputable, though i dont find it worth bothering with.



decision was taken to end the administrative measures and prosecutions which had been directed against the minority for the last 25 years and to tone down the policy of deporting minority members. This policy was finally abandoned in 1998 with the repeal of article 19 of the Greek Citizenship Code, which had given the Minister of Internal Affairs the unconstitutional power to strip members of the Turkish minority of their Greek citizenship. It is estimated that over the years the notorious article 19 had been used to deprive some 60,000 minority members of their citizenship on the grounds of their Turkish descent.

http://www.sitemaker.gr/antiethnikis...ariospagos.doc


No Doubt, Turkish Government has acted with suspicion and bigotry towards the Greek population, and has been the cause in the migration of many Greeks, but the economic concerns had also a share in it, whilst the Armenians, who are legally under the same provisions as the Greeks, raised from 50-60 000 to a 150 000 population in Turkey today due to immigration caused by severity of Economic situation in Armenia.



Hagia Sophia is not destroyed, and it was back at Ottoman Times in the 15th century, Right across the Hagia Sophia there's the Blue Mosque built by Architect Mehmet Aga. My humble opinion is that having been able to build such a masterpiece, Ottomans could have left Hagia Sophia unchanged. Apparantly they thought it would symbolize the end of Byzantine Empire, But again, IMO it was wrong thing to do…



I dont know if your figure of 73 church is the truth but i got your main concern. Full compensation has been paid for the damage done at the riots which took