This is just Turkey trying to by time to look good for Europe. Why do Armenians need another debate over the Genocide issue, its effectively been proven that it happened.

So your saying because two newspapers rejected it, it didn't happen!?

"Most Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll as evidence for a systematic, organized plan to eliminate the group."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia...ide#_note-nazi



The thing is many of the Turkish scholars who are against using the term 'genocide' do not question the amount of deaths but say they were due to starvation or civil war between Armenian groups rather then genocide. It not like Turkish scholars can say anything else, if they admit the Armenian genocide they get taken to court by the state,

This is a stupid comparison, those Turkish deaths were over 100 years not in 2 years like the Armenian genocide.

What?????!!!!??
Turkey is over 99% Muslim population and 92% Turkish ethnicity with 7% being Kurdish (according to Turkish government, some say up to 20% Kurdish).

What happened to the large populations of Greeks, Armenians and Jews. Today there are around 20,000 Greeks (when once there was over 1.5 million), 26,000 Jews (where once there was 500,000), 5,000 Assyrians (when once there was close to 1 million) and around 60,000 Armenians (where once there was close to 2 million).



These are just nationalist folk songs, not official government policy, unlike Turkey's "Turkey for the Turks" campaign.

3 Days???? An entire 3 days!!! Turkey only got 400 years.

I’m ignorant? http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...005961,00.html
France officially recognised the genocide in 2001,


Just like Greece sent Turkey aid during the Earthquake.

I know for fact Turkish groups pushed for Autonomy in Bulgaria in the late 80’s.
Anyway I could ask you the same question on why Turkey refuses to recognise many Turks with Kurdish ethnicity as Kurds in Eastern Turkey.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You really need to learn your history, when Macedonia was divided after the Balkan wars the ‘League of Nations’ implemented a population exchange where thousands of Bulgarians living in what was now Greece were moved into Bulgaria and Yugoslavia and thousands of Greeks from Yugoslavia and Bulgaria were moved into Greece.

There are currently 443,550 holders of Albanian citizenship in Greece. Cham Albanians (Albanians from Epirus) still number 40,000 in Greece. Cham Albanian Muslims fought alongside the axis powers against Greece in WWII and therefore after the war those who fought against the Greeks (mostly Muslim) were exiled from the country. What you don’t understand is Cham Albanians were very small in population to begin with, even in Albania there are only 100,000 Cham Albanians and it is estimated that only 5,000 Cham Albanians died during the WWII fighting or the British ordered attack on Cham villagers.

Circular logic, It is not proven, UN does not recognize it and that is what really matters as far as legal aspect is concerned.read back what i wrote simpleton, you are not producing anything new. Is it not the recognition/admission that Armenians want? So then what is wrong with proving their case in a scholarly debate if it is such a well-known and simple thing as you present? Why would it not be likely to bring any solutions when the primary demand (admission) of Armenians can be satisfied ?



LOL, this is the greatest piece of manipulation i have ever encountered, show me where did they say newspapers rejected it ? You dont even know what i am talking about, since you think it is the newspapers who rejected it. A newspaper does not reject or admit anything, they just publish what others say. It is 69 American scholars who rejected it by giving declaration in Newspapers.

This is not a proof of anything, other than the tragedy involved. A death toll has no relevance to whether something can be classified as Genocide or not, first learn this basic fact you ignorant thug. Two main conditions of genocide is premeditation and intent to annihilate, nothing relevant to numbers.

LOL, they dont question the deaths? are you idiot or what? have you ever read a book by a Turkish scholar? Most books rather focuss on the resulting deaths and numbers. This is not Turkish scholars alone, but many experts on Turkish and Middle east history point out that Armenians were killed, died of disease, starvation etc... but in the process Armenians killed many muslim civilians as well.


No not really, what is stupid is the denialist attitude that you have taken up. These deaths are result of wars and ethnic conflict and inflicted in a short span of time, which took place between 1821-1922. Just to illustrate :


Numerically, those who suffered the most were the Muslim communities of the Balkans which were identified with the hated Ottoman regime. They were subjected to massacre and expulsion. One recent study has calculated that within the short span of the 1912-1913 Balkan Wars, 1,450,000 Muslim civilians perished and another 410,000 became refugees.

Avigdor Levy
Near Eastern and Jewish Studies Department, Brandeis University
Christians, Jews and Muslims in the OttomanEmpire: Lessons for Contemporary Coexistence, page 5

But of course you the stupid one, will ignore this, as you usually do and will not answer my arguments, but will select some of them and try to do


This is simply made up. this is only garbage, Turkish government does not make such statistics based on ethnicity. There is no census registration based on ethnicity. Only in 1960s they held one census record based on language but not ethnicity but it was 40 years ago. However created this lie of 7% is a stupid person, since there is no such statistics. The Gennereally accepted figure Kurds is 14-15 million, which is 20 percent. Ethnic diversity in Turkey is well-known by many , from Circassians to Bosnians there are many elements who live inside Turkey, one BBC article speaks of 5 million Albanians, you are way out of debt.

Greek population was never over 1,5 million, this is a made up figure by the Greeks. and over 1 million went to Greece by population exchanges. Armenians were deported tragically, As for Jews , it is only your stupid claim, they are very well treated and about 100 000 of them migrated to Israel and some to USA but most of them are friendly and they are the reasons why Turkey and israel has been clos allies for years, even in USA they founded organizations and associations under the names such 'Turkey's Friends" etc.

As i said again you are not seeing the whole picture:

Likewise, as they gained their independence from the Ottomans and expanded the borders of their new states, the Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians and Montenegrins largely killed or expelled their Muslim populations. The Muslim refugees from these lands poured into the Ottoman Empire, bringing with them tales of horror that catalysed anti-Christian feeling among the Ottoman Muslims. (…)
... Yet in the Balkan wars of 1912-1913, the Christian states of Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and Montenegro partitioned the Ottoman territories in Europe and slaughtered or expelled much of the Muslim population in the process. As the journalist Leon Trotsky, who reported on the Balkan Wars, wrote at the time, ‘the Bulgars in Macedonia, the Serbs in Old Serbia, in their national endeavour to correct data in the ethnographical statistics that are not quite favourable to them, are engaged quite simply in systematic extermination of the Muslim population in the villages, towns and districts[.]’ The ethnic cleansing practised by the Christian Balkan states acted as a decisive influence on the CUP to adopt similar methods. The Armenian rebels who fought alongside the Russians against the Ottomans in World War I, and the Greeks who invaded Anatolia under Lloyd George’s guidance, carried out systematic atrocities against Turkish Muslims.
http://zope06.v.servelocity.net/hjs/...-29.8090352715



2.3 million Muslims lived in the Ottoman areas occupied by Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia in 1912/13. Ten years later, only 870,114 of them remained, while 62% had left or had been killed. Greece was most successful in expelling Muslims from the areas it had occupied: of almost 750,000 Muslims who had been living in Agean Macedonia in 1911, only 124,460 remained in 1923.18
The Perception of Muslims in Bulgaria and Greece:Between the ‘Self’ and the ‘Other’ by ULF BRUNNBAUER
Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs, Vol. 21, No. 1, 2001


The Greek invasion of western Anatolia from 1919 to 1922 caused the death of approximately 640,000 Muslims and produced 860,000 refugees.
K. H Karpat. The International Migration Review. New York: Summer 1997.Vol.31, Iss. 2; pg. 470, 4 pgs


"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
The Jewish Times, June 21, 1990


Haha you wish, It is Classical hypocrisy on your behalf. You again distorted It was the polciy of rebel leaders like it or not. And the fact that the entire muslim population is exterminated is a proof of it.

'Describing a war against all Turks, Kolokotrones, one of the leading Klephts and rebels sent instructions “to attack the Turkish inhabitants imultaneously, storming them in their different fortresses.”
same sources


http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/a...?enewsid=39806
read the link i gave you, in order to save yourself from ignorance pool you are swimming in, by reading Greek authors. If it is not enough, i will keep instructing you by using the books of Greek Historians such as L.S. Stavrianos.



Yes ignorant, it is not a recent one, as you claimed.

Just like Turkey sent Greece aid during the earthquake in Greece.

LOL, Any source ? Bulgarian Communist Regime ? It was an official propaganda by communist goverment in order to legitimize the Bulgarization campaign. In and of itself is a garbage, there was no such a demand.


There is only one party which advocate more rights for Kurds and gets only 1/4 of Kurdish votes, in other words 3/4 of Kurds dont seem to have a problem or demand for new rights.



Are you laughing at your stupidity ?


Greece had some experience with population exchanges by now. A clause allowing the exchange (on a voluntary basis) of 92.000 Bulgarians against 46.000 Greeks had already been inserted into the peace agreement of Neully with Bulgaria, concluded in August

refugees and deportees 1912-1924
Erik-Jan Zürcher


I am talking about almost 900 thousand and you are talking about the populationm exchange of 92 thousand Bulgarians, in 1900, there were some 500,000 Bulgarians in what would become Aegean Macedonia. Currently there are, at most, 100,000 in Greece, most living in the Florina region. Given population growth patterns, one would expect to see some 875,000 in Greece. In short it is you who needs to learn history, as i see it you have brought nothing intellectuel to argue, yet throw up all these B.S. propaganda which has no factual basis.


There are currently 443,550 holders of Albanian citizenship in Greece. Cham Albanians (Albanians from Epirus) still number 40,000 in Greece..[/quote]

Most Albanians are immigrants, I dont care if a small fraction of them is friendly towards Greeks or not , but it does not change the fact that Greece have all but cleansed the Albanian population of South Iannina ..

Yes your right the amount of deaths is not a factor for the dictionary description of genocide, but anyone with a half a brain can see a connection.
Your acting like the amount of death is the only proof of genocide in this case. Theres is plenty of other proof, there eye witness acounts from American, German and British foreign diplomats as well as photos.
There are famous quotes from historic leaders;

"These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule."
Kamal Attaturk

"Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians? "
Adolf Hitler persuading his associates that a Jewish holocaust would be tolerated by the west

"It was not war. It was most certainly massacre and genocide, something the world must remember... We will always reject any attempt to erase its record, even for some political advantage"
Yossi Beilin, Ireali foreign minister

"The Ottoman Empire should be cleaned up of the Armenians and the Lebanese. We have destroyed the former by the sword, we shall destroy the latter through starvation."
Enver Pasha, 1 of 3 rulers of wartime Turkey to US Ambassador Morgenthau

"Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate (grundlich aufzaumen) its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention"
Talat Pasha, 1 of 3 rulers of wartime Turkey to Dr. Mordtmann of the German Embassy

"800,000 Armenian deportees were actually killed...by holding the guilty accountable the government is intent on cleansing the bloody past. "
Cemal Pasha, 1 of 3 rulers of wartime Turkey publicly declared

So that makes the genocide of Armenians okay does it. I could of brought up the 20 million estimated Greek deaths of Greece under Ottoman rule, but I didn't. Nor did I bring up the Ottoman policy where 1 in every 5th boy born was taken from Greek homes and other Ottoman occupied territories and raised as a Turk which under the definition of genocide is an act of genocide "forcibly transferring children of the group to another group" Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
I didn't because that’s not the issue. This thread is about Turkey’s entry into the EU and one of it the conditions of its entry will be to recognise the Armenian Genocide as well as too recognise the EU member state of Cyprus.


Do you know what’s funny, Kurds make up roughly the same percentage as that of Turks in Cyprus before the division. But the Greeks of Cyprus were denied self-determination despite making up close to 80% of the nation. Turks of Cyprus were allowed to veto every decision in the Cypriot government, I wonder if Kurds get this much control in the Turkish government. Don't you think its hypocritical that Cyprus cannot be Greek despite making up the same ethnic make up as Turkey in terms of percentage.

Ethnic diversity?, how can a nation with 99% Muslim population claim to be ethnically diverse.













Catalysed anti-Christian feeling? What are u talking about? Bad feeling between Muslims and Christians existed well before the break-up of the Ottoman Empire.
Christians were persecuted under Ottoman rule in Ottoman occupied lands. There is one major difference between the Turkish populations of the Greece and the Balkans and the Armenian and Greek populations of Asia Minor. The Turks in the Balkans were not indigenous but moved to the there territories when they were under Ottoman rule. The Armenians and Greeks of Asia Minor are indigenous and the Greek lands of Smyrna, Constantinople and Pontus are still occupied by Turkish rule.

What about the 20 million Greeks living in Greece who perished under Ottoman rule. These Muslims were occupiers of foreign land.
640,000!!!!! How can you claim such an outrages claim. There was no where that many Turkish anyway. Anyway any deaths both Greek and Muslim should be blamed on Attaturk for not following the Treaty of Serves and giving back the Greek lands of Smyrna and Eastern Asia Minor back to Greece. Also the massacre of Pontus Greeks in the historical Greek region of Pontus by the ‘Young Turks’ was another reason for the Greek invasion.

How is the entire Muslims population exterminated, there is more Turks in Greece currently then there are Greeks in Turkey.


'Describing a war against all Turks, Kolokotrones, one of the leading Klephts and rebels sent instructions “to attack the Turkish inhabitants imultaneously, storming them in their different fortresses.”
same sources




http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/a...?enewsid=39806
read the link i gave you, in order to save yourself from ignorance pool you are swimming in, by reading Greek authors. If it is not enough, i will keep instructing you by using the books of Greek Historians such as L.S. Stavrianos.




HOW IS IT NOT RECENT, the genocide happened in






There is only one party which advocate more rights for Kurds and gets only 1/4 of Kurdish votes, in other words 3/4 of Kurds dont seem to have a problem or demand for new rights.






Greece had some experience with population exchanges by now. A clause allowing the exchange (on a voluntary basis) of 92.000 Bulgarians against 46.000 Greeks had already been inserted into the peace agreement of Neully with Bulgaria, concluded in August

refugees and deportees 1912-1924
Erik-Jan Zürcher

[quote]
I am talking about almost 900 thousand and you are talking about the populationm exchange of 92 thousand Bulgarians, in 1900, there were some 500,000 Bulgarians in what would become Aegean Macedonia. Currently there are, at most, 100,000 in Greece, most living in the Florina region. Given population growth patterns, one would expect to see some 875,000 in Greece. In short it is you who needs to learn history, as i see it you have brought nothing intellectuel to argue, yet throw up all these B.S. propaganda which has no factual basis.
[\QUOTE]

500,000 in Greek Macedonia? Impossible. Where did you get your statistics?

That’s almost impossible because there was only 207,317 Bulgarians in the Vilaeti of Thessaloniki according to the 1904 Ottoman census.
Other reserchers like ‘Cleanthes Nicolaides’ claims that there was 656,300 in all of Macedonia (meaning it was impossible for 500,000 to be located in Greek Macedonia). Todor Simovski claims that there was only 360,000 Slavs in all of Macedonia.

Althoug there may have been incedents Bulgarians were never targets of an organised government attempt to whipe them out like the Armenians were. Thousands left during the first tranfer of population when Macedonia was liberated by Greece. Thousands more left after the Greek civil war where Greece’ Slavic population strongly supported the communists and left to communist countries after losing the war. Furthermore when “Macedonia” became a republic under Yugoslavia in the 1940’s many Slav who claimed themselves “Macedonian” left Greece. Then you have the thousands who assimilated and began to call themselves Greek. The 100,000 Bulgarians that live in Greece now will not last another generation. By then they will have also assimilated into Greek culture. The difference between these Greek Slavs and other cultural groups is that they’re also Orthadox Christian.

Hahahahaha


Most of the Cham Albanians fought with against Greeks in WWII and were therefore exiled, this happened even to ethnic Greeks who fought against Greek interest. Also Albanians of Epirus fought for the communists in the civil war because the Greek Communists were supported by the Albanian Communist government. This means after the war thousands were exiled. This happened also to the Slavic Greeks and Communists who were ethnically Greek. These deportations has nothing to do with race or religion but rather political alliances. There was no Cham Albanian genocide, I don’t know where you get you infromation from. There couldn’t have been more then 5,000 deaths contributed to Greeks. Also how can you say they are wiped out, Cham Albanians only probably numbered around 100,000 peoples at there peek (and that’s being generous) and today there is still 40,000 in Greece and there are 100,000 currently living in Albania.

Then you don’t have the half of the brain, read here again you hypocrite simpleton :

Numerically, those who suffered the most were the Muslim communities of the Balkans which were identified with the hated Ottoman regime. They were subjected to massacre and expulsion. One recent study has calculated that within the short span of the 1912-1913 Balkan Wars, 1,450,000 Muslim civilians perished and another 410,000 became refugees.
Avigdor Levy
Near Eastern and Jewish Studies Department, Brandeis University
Christians, Jews and Muslims in the OttomanEmpire: Lessons for Contemporary Coexistence, page 5


Read back, it is not me but you jumped into the game of presenting numbers as the proof and I responded It.


This is a worthless forgery proved as such some 20 years ago. See: Ataov, Turkkaya, Another Falsification: “Statement” (1926) Wrongly Attributed to Atatürk, (Sistem Ofset, 1986)


Again nothing to take seriously, just worthless garbage , here two long readings:
The U.S. Congress and Adolf Hitler on the Armenians , By Dr. Heat Lovvry,
http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/arm_usc...scongress.html
Hitler and the "Armenian Question" by Prof.Dr. Turkkaya Ataöv,
http://www.atmg.org/RememberArmenians.html
typical stupidity on your behalf . So this is a witness ? do you know meaning of witness and founding date of israel together ?
"We reject attempts to create a similarity between the Holocaust and the Armenian allegations. Nothing similar to the Holocaust occurred. It is a tragedy what the Armenians went through but not a genocide."

Shimon Peres, Nobel prize-winning Israeli Foreign Minister.



The statement is taken from Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story first published in 1918. Yet this book had a strong propagandistic motive. It was written, as Morgenthau explained in a 1917 letter to President Woodrow Wilson, to convince the American people “of the necessity of carrying the war to a victorious
conclusion.” The book puts words into the mouths of various players that, with few exceptions, do not appear in the sources utilized by Morgenthau. The memoir portrays Talaat and Enver as ruthless villains, but in his diary, available at the Library of Congress manuscript collection, Morgenthau repeatedly praises the two ministers for their kindness. He had frequently invited them for meals at his home and gone riding with them in the countryside. The demonization of Talat and Enver in Morgenthau’s book through the use of allegedly verbatim comments was a politically inspired device, probably the brainchild of the journalist Burton J. Hendrick, who ghost-wrote the book and received a share of the royalties.

Guenter Lewy, Commentary, February 2006.


For the forgeries and distorition of German archival material see Cem Özgönül, Der Mythos eines Völkermordes and for a discussion of German sources see, Gunter Lewy, Armenian massacres in Otoman Turkey: A disputed Genocide, chapter 8; The Sources, and chapter 9; The Deportation Decision


For Talat Pasha’s relation with Armenians see G. Lewy, revisitng the Armenian Genocide, Middle East Quarterly, Fall 2005

The utter ruthlessness of Talât Pasha is a recurring theme…Such a demonization, though, represents an important change from the way many Armenians regarded Talât before 1915. On December 20, 1913, for example, British embassy official Louis Mallet reported the Armenians had confidence in Talât Pasha, "but fear that they may not always have to deal with a minister of the interior as well disposed as the present occupant[Talat Pahsa] of that post."[43] Similarly, the German missionary[worngly named German, Liprarit is in fact an Armenian activisits ]Liparit described Talât as a man "who over the last six years has acquired the reputation of a sincere adherent of Turkish-Armenian friendship."[44] Even the American head of the international Armenian relief effort in Istanbul recalled that Talât Pasha always "gave prompt attention to my requests, frequently greeting me as I called upon him in his office with the introductory remark: ‘We are partners; what can I do for you today?'"[45]

[43] Louis Mallet to Foreign Office, Foreign Office, 371/1773/58131.
[44] Report of December 1914, Politisches Archiv des Auswärtigen Amtes, Botschaft Konstantinopel /168 (Fiche 7243).
[45] Louise Jenison Peet, No Less Honor: The Biography of William Wheelock Peet (Chattanooga: E.A. Andrews, 1939), p. 170.


Further reading :

Armenian desires compromise attaining internal autonomy and self-rule in the 6 armenian (eastern Anatolian) Provinces (…) As mentioned before, these Provinces are now almost emtified of the Muslims; the Armenians (…) now constitute the majority in these areas where previously there were no Armenian majority. Therefore the question of autonomy is now far easier to resolve then before.
(Quote from the Letter send by the “German-Armenian Society” being established by Johannes Lepsius, to the Reich Chancellor Graf Georg von Hertling on 06 January 1918.)


And the source please? Because the source I have, claims otherwise :


one and one half million Turks and Kurds died as a result of Armenian atrocities.

Cemal Pasha, Memories of a Turkish Statesman, p. 281.


So wake up kid, you are not doing anything other than wasting my time, all stuff you borught is a cheap shot, it is clear and shown many times that you have not even read an elementary book on the subject but do the cheap copy-paste stuff over and over again.

20 million estimated Grek deaths, pure fantasy i can only say ROFL. Please do not hesitate and bring it, i hope you can stand behind your words and bring a proof for 20 million deaths, I knew you were a stupid kid who have no factual knowledge of history, but i didnt think that your ability to create fantasy is that strong




The Ottomans, he says, did not care about the religious beliefs of their subjects as long as they paid their taxes. The mass Islamizations that took place mainly in the Balkans were done with the consent of the Islamized because it would bring them better social and economic status. Janissaries were not collected forcibly through “random children collection.”
After a certain period, Pappas claims, the families themselves would send their children to the elite and privileged corps to secure their future. There was never a thing called “secret schools” run by the Orthodox clergy, Pappas proposes.
Keep dreaming idiot

Yeah i know, you claimed something very stupid as usual and when it became impossible bto back up your claim, you turned debate into sheer demagoguery.


Kurds speak 7 languages with variying dialects, in this sense they are no more one nation than the Uighur in China or Tatars in Russia. 1/3 of Turkish parliementerians have Kurdish origin, while today 7 members of cabinet are Kurdish, including ministry of interior. However i am quite flexible regarding the Kurds, if they all want an independent country, they should get it. I wrote this couple times before under this thread if you read it, you would know it.
Quite simple. Ethnic diversity is related to ethnic origin not religion. You are nothing more than waste of time.
Catalysed anti-Christian feeling? What are u talking about? Bad feeling between Muslims and Christians existed well before the break-up of the Ottoman Empire.. [/quote]
Calm down kid, it is evidently the plight of muslims what is being talked, it is not me that is talking, but a Hungarian scholars who is an advocate of Armenian genocide. So stop crying
You just dream so, nothing serious.

UN genocide convention does not define the genocide term according to historical locations of the groups, and at any rate 500 years of existence is enough to be considered a native in any civilized concept. If you however think their not being originated in those lands make Turks/muslims a fair game, you are stil wrong, neither Armenians nor Greeks, pontics were indigenous people, the original inhabittants of Asia minor is non other than Hitites. Even if we take your argument at face value, you are stil wrong, particularly the murder of muslims was not limited to Turks alone but Pomaks and Albanians were murdered as well. So leave this stupid justification attempts.
This only a prima facie absurdity, bring or cite any serious scholarly book, if you want to be taken seriously, dont make up from your ass.
It is not me, but a demographer writing at the journal internation migration review, he is not making cheap copy-paste stuff like you do but original research. As to your stupid claim that there was no where that many Turks, you are again only revealing how ignorant you are. The “Aydin vilayeti” alone had about 1,5 million muslims.

Why to accept such a fantasy like sevres? No, both the Greek and muslims deaths are the result of Greek imperialistic and fantastic dreams. Note that it was the inter-allied comission who indicated that Grek occupation of western Anatolia was not justified:
[b]No2.- Security in the vilayet of Aydin, and in Smyrna in particular, in no way justified the
Occupation of Smyrna’s forts by application of Article 7 of the armistice.

Furthermore, the situation in the vilayet did not justify the landing of allied troops in Smyrna... [b]
The Members of the Commission of Inquiry

GENERAL BUNOUST French Delegate
ADMIRAL BRISTOL US Delegate
GENERAL HARE British Delegate
GENERAL DALL’OLIO Italian Delegate
Cagri. E, Greek Occupation of Izmir and Adjoining Territories Report Of The Inter-Allied Commission of Inquiry. Page 31, 32.

Also note that It was the Greek General Metaxas who remarked “ The Turks notice we are the invaders” when he said the war against Turks could not be won and the Turks see it as their indepence struggle. (see David Fromkin, A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire).
[quote[How is the entire Muslims population exterminated, there is more Turks in Greece currently then there are Greeks in Turkey.[/quote]
Do you really know what we are talking about ? the passage speaks about 1821 rebellion, after which no muslims left, yet you are speaking about the muslims of thrace which were not included in Greece by 1821 and throughout the 19th century. You are really nothing more than waste of time. I really pity you.
French is one of the earliest not the recent. They recently only passed a law to ban speakign against it, not recognition.


Sheer demagoguery. Read back what I wrote, What I am talking and what you are claiming are totally different things but I am not surprised that you have little or no understanding or pretend to so to lead discussion to another direction. I am neither impressed nor did gain anything from your demagogic arguments yet. In short and as I said many times, I only waste my time by thinking you are worthy of discussion.

D.M. Brancoff, La Macedoine et sa population chretienne (Paris 1905 ), it actually says “501,110 Bulgarians”.
First, The Ottoman administrative boundaries and government structures were totally different from that of succeding regimes in the Balkans.Second it is very funny that you make use of so-called Ottoman statistics when it fits in your interests but fail to make use of it in the case of Armenians. Last and more importantly there was no Otoman census giving the number of Bulgarians as 207,317. It is not the Otoman statistics but the so-called “Hilmi Pahsa Statistics” made up by the Greeks to make their claims look credible and attributed to the Otoman administrator Hilmi Pahsa and furthered used by Kyriakides in a book. The Bulgarians too made up their own “Hilmi Pahsa Statistics”. Learn here the real story :

Recognizing that Ottoman population records were most likely to be accurate, both Greek and Bulgarian apologists quoted from 1905 data that were supposedly recorded in Macedonia by Huseyin Hilmi Pasa. These Hilmi Pasa statistics are remarkable in that they contradict themselves wildly in different publications. Greek apologists published one set of Hilmi Pasa statistics; Bulgarian apologists published another. Not surprisingly, the Greek statistics showed
more Greeks, the Bulgarian statistics more Bulgarians, even though the data were supposedly from the same source. In fact, both groups were lying; each had made up its own data, then claimed they were Ottoman statistics. The real statistics published by the Ottoman government were completely different, but the nationalists could hope that no one would ever look at them.
MUSLIMS IN OTTOMAN EUROPE: POPULATION FROM 1800 TO 1912
Justin McCarthy, Nationalities Papers, Vol. 28, No. 1, 2000


The fact is that Greece had cleansed the Bulgarian population in large despite your demagogic arguments, like it or not.

Sounds like they won't for now, as it was clear since the beginning IMO. Without the constitution ratified, public support for integration diminuishing and a majority of countries opposing Turkish membership it would have been foolish to push forward.

Let's see if Turkey will get on the knees and show some progress on Turkey, otherwise it would be pretty easy way for the EU governments to get out of the enlargement process. Thoughts?
source

__________________

How do you stop the process though ? Officially negotiations are still going on.

It is easy - but so hypocritical !!! - to keep saying that Turkey is not making any progress ... How can you expect any country to make such progress so rapidly ? It is humanly impossible.

Personally I don't support Turkey's membership. It would be the death stroke to the EU.

I think we should consolidate what we have now and stop taking in new members. I hope our politicians had enough gut to carry out what the majority thinks.

__________________
______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

QUOTE=Hector;834587]
What your point?
Are u trying to tell me these muslim deaths justify the killing of Armenians who were not even involved in the Balkan wars.

Turks constantly compare the deaths of the Armenains massacres with the deaths of the Muslims in the balkans but these numbers cannot be compared they are combined numbers of different ethnic groups not only Turks (i.e. Albanians, Pomaks, Muslim Roma). If we were to compare the deaths of all the Christian populations (i.e. Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians) the number would be far greater. Also the Muslim deaths in the Balkans were not due to one ethnic group either unlike the Armenian genocide but rather separate incidents by groups of Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks.


hahahahahaha
The Turkish government would have had Turkish scholars reading through the history books for the last 50 years to try prove that Attaturk was not responsible for that quote or else he will be guilty of Article 301 (a law that makes it a crime to say or write anything deemed to be "un-Turkish").