I disagree. After WWI the allied powers were stupid to impose the Treaty of Versailles and the accompanying reparrations. That was in my view one of the major reasons for the weakness of the Weinar. It was also clearly one of the major reasons of hyperinflation during the Weimar which in turn was part of the cause of the rise of communist parties in Germany at that time. Some nationalistic party was bound to develop, even had it not been the Nazi's. Not all of them would have been led by a paranoid, but they all would have had to contend with a population what wanted pride in Germany reestablished. Now given that, and the appeasement shown by the French and English, I believe that wold have encouraged aggressive behavior no matter who was in charge, even had it been the communists although then it would have been directed differently.

Now it is entirely true that my opinion is wrong, we will never know, but I think it is a valid opiniion based on the historical context.

__________________

The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

Hi

It can be true although I really can't imagine as there was simply no one else who would have done it the same way. I think any other chancellor would have acted different already in the very beginning of his government when Hitler simply skipped some laws - you see, all former chancellors in "Weimarer Republik" actually have acted very different.

Hitler became very energetic by not respecting any law. He had his plan, as already written in "Mein Kampf" and did it. And no one stopped him, that is the point. Everything he begun succeeded, most people were enthusiastik (but not all, esp. the elder people). But he began very early to establish a system of terror and fear - first only faintly and only a little bit, but then more and more.

But in 1939 it was already fact that no one could trust no one. Nobody was allowed to think any bad about Hitler, else jail and concentration camp. Even parents had to be cautious what they told their children, as children were catechized by their teachers and so on.

By this time people didn't need more proud of their land. Germany had achieved enough, Versailles Treaty was forgotten since 1933. People didn't like war, then, but they didn't dare to say it aloud. It was no German war, it was Hitler's war. He wanted to conquer Europe and the whole world. Most people didn't want that war, I'm rather sure.

I read an interesting book about Hitler from J. Fest. He wrote that Hitler very early realized that he could not win the war. He wrote I think in 1942 or 1943 Hitler already knew he will loose. He continued the war nevertheless. Probably he continued the war as it was his personal war. Loosing the war meant death for Hitler because of his crimes (civil mass murders), so he continued the war and tried to take Germany with him into death and destruction.

It is confirmed that he begun the war in 1939 not because it was convenient for Germany to begin a war in this year. It was convenient for his lifetime, he told another politician. He thought if he begins the war later he will be too old. But all the time before the war he spoe and acted as if he wouldn't begin a war, as he knew people wouldn't like that. Of course, well-informed people could see his aim, nevertheless.


I think that any aggressive solution was in the air in 1933 that is fact. That stupid antisemitism maybe was a real German story (but even that horrible?). But the war in 1939 was more a Hitler-war than a German war, I think.

From what I've read, unlike in 1914, Germans didn't take to the streets in joy in 1939. German support for Hitler did increase as the victories piled up, but they were also unaware of what was going on in the occupied territories. And keep in mind that except for France and Britain, most of the regimes Hitler took down were no angels themselves. Especially Stalin's, which might have been worse.

I agree, the enthousiasm for war was very reduced in 1939, nevertheless the Germans followed Hitler into all of his war...

@Gort Certainly the Versailles system was too harsh to build up a stable peace system in Europe, but nevertheless you cannot explain the war against the USSR because of Versailles, a country that was not included in the peace negotiations and itself for the most part excluded from the system. IMO the international system after 1919 was not all to bad (just look how Germany looked like in 1945, in there was a stable developpment afterwards), but it lacked the abilities to impose its decisions on major countries. If nations like the US or the SU would have imposed the order on Germany it would have worked like in 1945, maybe not for the reparations which were simply too high and indeed caused hyperinflation.

But anyways, Hitler wanted a major war in Europe to get a Weltmacht and to get his Lebensraum in the East. The frustration over Versailles only gave him public support for his early actions, such as the re-integration of the Saar or his actions in the Rhineland.

__________________

Maybe, but don't forget they had to support Hitler. Anyone who was suspected not to support Hitler could suddenly vanish into a KZ.

I don't know if there were people in Germany being in the position to block or at least disapprove Hitler in any way, but normal people weren't.
Of course, it happened secretly; there were rumours about it I think, but people didn't believe it, or didn't want to believe it, or the news were that unbelievable that they weren't conceived and grasped.

But there was blatant antisemitism before the war, and this everyone knew. They took everything off the Jews and the Jews weren't allowed anything. This everyone could see.
Is it an excuse for Hitler? I don't think so.

I do not disagree that Hilters meglomania played a major role in the direction of the war, but I still contend that even had their been another leader Germany was ready to follow any strong nationalist that promised better economic times and to regain some of the pride stripped through the Treaty.

__________________

The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

Of course, but the better economic times and the regaining of the pride stripped through the Treaty were achieved already by 1936.

When Austria and Czechoslovakia was connected to Germany at the latest, there surely wasn't anything left for the people to wish an even larger Germany.

I agree. The time was right for a "strong man" and Hitler took his chance. If the Germans (and the rest of the World) would have known what the Nazis would be doing in the future, I guess things would have gone differently. But I guess at that time nobody even imagined that something like the Holocaust and such a devastating war could happen, even despite the fact that at least after 1937 or 1938 people must have known that the Nazis were up to no good. But with the start of the war, it was too late.

That may be true Frieda, but lets face it when the French and British allowed the Germans to essentially just take those territories, as well as the Rhine and Saar, without much in the way of complaints it almost told them they cold take more if they wanted, or at least gave them that impression. I am not sure it wold have taken a Hitler to decide if a little was good more would be even better. Any nationalist I believe would have seen the allied reaction as a green light. I am of the firm conviction that the French and German reaction was in large part responible for the war. Hitler and the Germans still are mainly responsible, but the reaction by the allies certainly did not help.

__________________

The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

I'm responsible? For what please?

__________________


Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Are you "the Germans" of the 1930ies?

If someone talks about the germans in the 30ies he cannot write "still responsible", my dear empty word warrior.

__________________


Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Did you actually read Gort's post??? He says that despite the fact that French and British also were partly responsible for the rise of the Nazis, nevertheless the Germans were mainly responsible. Don't you agree with that?

And btw., you should refrain from any name calling around here.

If Gort say "still" then it means "still are all Germans responsible" or it means "a little later in the future the historical view will be that the resoponsibility changes, because the past ist changing the future." Both views I don't agree. I even don't know what responsibility my father had or my grandfather had for this stupid wars in a crazy world. I don't know what they could make in another way than they did.

__________________


Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

It should be noted that history, not for the first or last time, proved the US right. We warned the French and British to seek a just peace, not revenge, and they didn't listen.

Seems that us Yanks do know a little something about diplomacy, eh?