Hello from Isarel! - Page 4 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

adaher · #46 (**permalink**) 07-20-2006

The SS was part of the German army, but not answerable to Wehrmacht officers. In the same way that Soviet political comissars were part of the military, but not answerable to the military officers.

However, the Wehrmacht played a large part in the Holocaust, so they don't escape blame.

AdrienXII · #47 (**permalink**) 07-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by adaher

The SS was part of the German army, but not answerable to Wehrmacht officers. In the same way that Soviet political comissars were part of the military, but not answerable to the military officers.

However, the Wehrmacht played a large part in the Holocaust, so they don't escape blame.

Not to mention that they summarily executed a shitload of civilians on their own. Military justice...

W.E.B. Du Bois · #48 (**permalink**) 07-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdrienXII

AFAIK, the SS were not German Army. More like a private militia, although I could be wrong. Not that it really changes anything.

The SS were not just special assasin units. They actually fielded the best-equipped units in the German Army. I'm unfamiliar with the terminology of army sizes. I'll have to refer to adaher there.

@ adaher

Would you say they were division level strength? For example the Waffen SS. I think there are many others.

WEB

W.E.B. Du Bois · #49 (**permalink**) 07-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by dor

You know what the most that good a here to see?
That several that you think that Israel bombs gratuitous, more more places of terror in Lebanon are killed to my joy.
I hope so that Lebanon will fall along with the police of her terror and you even more will get nervous on the achievements of the Jewish army that not to compete in him and his strength will not questionable rule.
You simply dead from this that Israel are successful by her goals within the demolition of the Arab power.

Well I imagine that someone in Germany or Japan would say the same thing to a nervous Pole or Chinese during WWII. However, I don't feel that nervous about Israel. Israel is definetely wrong, but her "success" in murder and strengthening Hezbollah does not cause me particular dread. If you cared a wit about the lives of innocent people (including your own life) and less about Israeli nationalism, then you would not be so fast to try to destroy the Lebanese state.

WEB

AdrienXII · #50 (**permalink**) 07-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

The SS were not just special assasin units. They actually fielded the best-equipped units in the German Army. I'm unfamiliar with the terminology of army sizes. I'll have to refer to adaher there.

Okay, they even had a Panzer Division. I was argueing more about their legal statute.

adaher · #51 (**permalink**) 07-20-2006

Would you say they were division level strength? For example the Waffen SS. I think there are many others.

They were division level strength. The Death's Head division comes to mind.

They actually fielded the best-equipped units in the German Army.

Are you sure? Everything I've read about them indicates that they were mostly infantry units chosen more for fanaticism than actual fighting effectiveness. Don't have to be all that effective when your main job is killing civilians.

W.E.B. Du Bois · #52 (**permalink**) 07-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by adaher

Would you say they were division level strength? For example the Waffen SS. I think there are many others.

They were division level strength. The Death's Head division comes to mind.

They actually fielded the best-equipped units in the German Army.

Are you sure? Everything I've read about them indicates that they were mostly infantry units chosen more for fanaticism than actual fighting effectiveness. Don't have to be all that effective when your main job is killing civilians.

I remember two accounts of SS Units. One is the Waffen SS which was sent to fight in Normandy. They had the best weapons (i.e. Panthers and Tigers). Another was an SS unit sent to hold onto Hungary (while the Russians were knocking on Germany's eastern border, chalk that one up to Hitler's insantiy). They were also equipped with Tigers and other mechanized units.

Oh and a third. During Kursk SS units were also involved. I don't remember what the name of the division was, but I think it was in the Southern spearhead.

WEB

W.E.B. Du Bois · #53 (**permalink**) 07-20-2006

Southern Assault on Kursk.

Note the SS Panzer Corps.

doniston · #54 (**permalink**) 07-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by IIIX

The problem is that if Israel kills hundreds of civilians each time 4 [!!!] soldiers are kidnapped, the crisis will see no solution except the total annihilation of one or the other side.
I think you should use an automatic corrector

what ever that is

jpsartre12 · #55 (**permalink**) 07-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

Don't get your hopes up. It ain't gonna happen.

WEB

You so funny.

jpsartre12 · #56 (**permalink**) 07-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreeThinker

Like i said:

1. Hezbollah attached the military infrastructure by kidnapping 2 SOLDIERS!!!

Here's what Wikopedia gives as a timeline:
[quote]
Timeline
Hezbollah raid

[b]At 9:05 AM local time (0605 GMT) on 12 July 2006[5] Hezbollah

jpsartre12 · #57 (**permalink**) 07-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreeThinker

Like i said:

1. Hezbollah attached the military infrastructure by kidnapping 2 SOLDIERS!!!

Here's what Wikopedia gives as a timeline:

Quote:

Timeline
Hezbollah raid

At 9:05 AM local time (0605 GMT) on 12 July 2006[5] Hezbollah’s military wing launched a barrage of rockets and mortars on Israeli military positions and northern Israeli village of Shelomi, apparently as a diversion, wounding five civilians in the process.[14] A Hezbollah force then attacked two armoured IDF Humvees patrolling along the Lebanese border road near the Israeli village of Zar’it with anti-tank rockets killing three soldiers and taking two in captivity to unknown territory, possibly into Lebanon.[15] Hezbollah has named this operation “Truthful Promise.”

Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah then declared that “No military operation will return them… The prisoners will not be returned except through one way: indirect negotiations and a trade [of prisoners].”[16]

The IDF confirmed that two Israeli soldiers were captured by Hezbollah, and identified them as Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev. An Israeli Merkava Mark II tank was destroyed by a 300 kilogram (660 lb) improvised explosive device as it attempted to pursue Hezbollah into Lebanon. All four of the crew members were killed. Another Israeli soldier was killed when he came under heavy fire during an attempted recovery of the bodies from the tank.[15] In all, 8 soldiers were killed, 2 captured and 6 wounded.[5]

Israel accuses Iran of organising the capture. They occured on the day that Iran was supposed to address its uranium enrichment program or face sanctions from the West.[17]

Israeli response

Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Olmert declared the attack by Hezbollah’s military wing an “act of war” and promised Lebanon a “very painful and far-reaching response.”[18] Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz also said that “the State of Israel sees itself free to use all measures that it finds it needs, and the Israeli Forces have been given orders in that direction.”[19] IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz said “If the soldiers are not returned we will turn Lebanon’s clock back 20 years.”[20]

Israel said it held the Beirut government responsible for the attack, but Prime Minister Fuad Siniora denied any knowledge of the raid and stated that he did not condone it.[21] An emergency meeting of the Lebanese government reaffirmed this position.[22]

Following several days of Israeli bombing raids, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah stated that Hezbollah was now ready for "open war" with Israel.

Early on 13 July 2006 Israel sent IDF jets to bomb Lebanon’s international airport near Beirut, forcing its closure and diverting its arriving flights to Cyprus. Hezbollah retaliated by bombarding the Israeli towns of Nahariya and Safed, as well as villages nearby with rocket fire. The attacks killed two civilians and wounded 29 more.[23] Nahariya residents began leaving the city en masse in fear of further Katyusha attacks.[24] Israel is now imposing an air and sea blockade on Lebanon,[25][26] and has bombed the main Beirut–Damascus highway.[27]
Map of conflict as of 14 July 2006. Since that time, additional targets in both nations have been struck.

Israel’s Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev claims the Hezbollah unit that captured the two soldiers is trying to transfer them to Iran. However, the spokesman did not disclose his source.[28] Maj.-Gen. Udi Adam of the Northern Command, says Israel has not ruled out sending ground forces into Lebanon.[29] Air strikes were also carried out against outposts of Hezbollah.

The Israeli leadership has stated that their aims in the conflict are twofold: the unconditional release of the two captured Israeli soldiers and the weakening of Hezbollah in order to prevent unmitigated future attacks on Israel and its citizens.

Targeting of civilians

Strikes on Lebanon's civilian infrastructure include Beirut airport, ports, grain silos, bridges, roads, factories, medical and relief trucks, and the country's largest dairy farm Liban Lait.[30] In one example characterized to be a breach of international law and the Geneva conventions,[31] families evacuating the village of Marwahin in South Lebanon were struck on an open road by an Israeli missile attack; 17 were killed, most of them women and children.[32][33] The organization Human Rights Watch called for an investigation into this incident: “The IDF needs to investigate this attack on a civilian convoy and provide more details about the circumstances … Having warned civilians to evacuate their village, Israeli forces should have been aware that civilians would be using this road and should have taken great care to avoid harming them.”[34]

After widespread attacks on Lebanon by Israeli forces, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah said "In the beginning, we started to act calmly, we focused on "Israel" (sic) military bases and we didn't attack any settlement, However, since the first day, the enemy attacked Lebanese towns and murdered civilians... Hizbullah militants had destroyed military bases, while the "Israelis" killed civilians and targeted Lebanon's infrastructure".[35] Artillery rockets by Hezbollah were fired at civilian targets throughout the conflict, landing in all major cities of northern Israel including Haifa, Nazareth, Tiberias, Nahariya and Safed.[36]

Louise Arbour, United Nations high commissioner for human rights, expressed "grave concern over the continued killing and maiming of civilians in Lebanon, Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory". She called for Israel to obey a "principle of proportionality,". She also suggested that actions on both sides may be war crimes, telling the BBC that "indiscriminate shelling of cities constitutes a foreseeable and unacceptable targeting of civilians … Similarly, the bombardment of sites with alleged military significance, but resulting invariably in the killing of innocent civilians, is unjustifiable," and also warning that, "This obligation is also expressed in international criminal law, which defines war crimes and crimes against humanity. …The scale of the killings in the region, and their predictability, could engage the personal criminal responsibility of those involved, particularly those in a position of command and control." [7][8] [9] Arbour was the Chief Prosecutor of War Crimes before the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia in The Hague. The United Nations Undersecretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, Jan Egeland has said that one third of the dead are children.[37]

An unnamed senior IDF officer told Ynetnews that the ongoing strikes have been targeted against rocket launch sites and rocket storerooms, although many of them were intentionally located by Hezbollah in civilian population centers.[38]

On 16 July Lebanese President Emile Lahoud claimed Israeli forces have used "phosphorus incendiary bombs, which are a blatant violation of international laws, ...against Lebanese civilians."[39][40][41] Information Minister Ghazi Aridi also claimed, "Israel is using internationally prohibited weapons against civilians."[39][40][42] The use of incendiary weapons on civilians is prohibited by the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons.[43] The accusations have not been confirmed. Some military analysts have said that Israel is intentionally targeting civilian infrastructure. James Dobbins, a former member of the Bush administration, had the following to say: "The military rationale seems rather thin, since many of the targets have no conceivable relationship to Hezbollah," [10]

Human Rights Watch stated on 18 July that "Hezbollah's attacks (on Haifa) were serious violations of international humanitarian law and probable war crimes."[44] Amnesty International condemned both parties and called for UN intervention, stating: "The past few days has seen a horrendous escalation in attacks against civilians and civilian infrastructure. Yet the G8 leaders have failed conspicuously to uphold their moral and legal obligation to address such blatant breaches of international humanitarian law, which in some cases have amounted to war crimes."[45]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Is...banon_conflict

According to this, the first missile attack took place BEFORE the capture of the 2 Israeli soldiers.

jpsartre12 · #58 (**permalink**) 07-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

Well I imagine that someone in Germany or Japan would say the same thing to a nervous Pole or Chinese during WWII. However, I don't feel that nervous about Israel. Israel is definetely wrong, but her "success" in murder and strengthening Hezbollah does not cause me particular dread. If you cared a wit about the lives of innocent people (including your own life) and less about Israeli nationalism, then you would not be so fast to try to destroy the Lebanese state.

WEB

Israel isn't trying to destroy the Lebanese state, only Hezbollah. And unofficially, the Lebanese government is hoping that they are successful. Hezbollah has been a rouge organization controlling the south for too long.