So the only thing that you've said here is that the Gerogian people are too stupid to elect their own leaders. I don't think people are so foolish that they would throw out a good leader just because an ad by George Soros told them to do so.

Just because I have not accepted your foolish premises that the attack was either SOLELY planned at ONE meeting only, or that the people plotting the attack would be the ones to carry it out, does not mean that your idiotic "Hollywood" conclusion applies to me.

Instead of showing pictures, perhaps you should spend more effort trying to debunk what the Georgian government has said. Beating up stupid strawman arguments don't count by the way.

Yes, I admit that. Do you need to hear it again? I didn't think your English was that poor.

Well, I don't see where the accusation only includes that ONE meeting. Kind of a strawman you're making here, isn't it? How many of histories coups were plotted at in just one meeting. Overthrowing a government takes a lot of planning, not just one meeting.

Huh?) Web, have you been droping in the wrong parties or what?) Will you please chuck it up for God's sake or at least don't force all of us to witness your flash-backs from there. Let's have it separately - the politics on the one side and your private life on the other))

Not stupid dear WEB (against your black/white dividation of the world), but they have mostly other preferences than you and me 4.ex. In fact this is what the American people should know- mostly the population of such countries ISN'T interested in political theories "democracy or not" - all they want is enough to eat, enough to drink, enough warmness in the winther and not to worry that next day this all will crumble.
The election is for such people also not the same as it is for western people.
Because of the poor political education, they are quickly ready to get back at the current government through their voting if they think another leader would either give them more to eat, drink and so on, or at least if they think they aren't going to lose something because of this ( than it is some kind of opportunism)



really- it doesn't matter what YOU accept or not- the matter is what the Georgian government did - and THEY accused the leaders to prepare a revolution with their OWN hands- one of them was even accused to have prepared a blow up of an office of the ruling party!
http://www.rustavi2.com.ge/news_text...main&ct=5&wth=
http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/politics/...issue=11585744

To debunk? Well you know, it was not necessary to debunk that Saddam never had helped the Al Quaeda as it was obviosly farcical for anyone but for the Bush administration...Inspite of this your government insisted on them being ploting together against the USA until last week I think when it was finally attested by the Senate that Saddam never helped or even contacted Bin Laden... ...pretty slow mental work if you ask me
Same situation here... If you prefer to wait again till you government finally admit the anti-democracy in Georgia as it finaly had to admit the secret prisons, no chemical weapons in Iraq and so on and so on - your choice


pretty poor sarkasm



BUT IT IS SO - the accusation do not mention any other "facts" than this one meeting (as the blowing up of the r.p office is a different case)
you can look on all this sites
http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=13484
http://en.rian.ru/world/20060908/53670479.html

Even if you'll take a look at this site
http://www.rustavi2.com.ge/index.php?ct=5&wth=
Which is the hard-lined pro Sakashwili broadcast station, you wount be able to find any other evidences or indices than this one "4 may"

Sorry I don't prescribe to nationalism, however I do know two Russian nationalist lovebirds when I see one. Now that communism is gone, you can do all the gross things that you always dreamed about. Chuck it up indeed.

Yes, your comment betrays as much stupidity as ignorance. Ignorance of the US for thinking that it is composed largely of farmers, and stupidity in thinking that Americans think in black/white terms.

OK, so what you are saying is that you don't believe in democracy for countries that are poor and lack Western educational standards. I don't even think you believe that. I think that you just hate Bush so much that you are just lashing out in your ignorant fashion against the United States.

If it doesn't matter what I accept or not, then I wonder why you started this thread with such an emotionally hurt tirade.

In any case, OK so one of the Opposition leaders was going to blow up the government. It's funny that although you think this is so unbelieveable but there is not one mention in either of your two sources that reinforces your attitude.

Glad you are so impressed by Bush's political comments. Once again, you fail to prove your own case and have to draw the entirety of your foreign policy beliefs based on Iraq. That is rather pathetic and methodologically unsound. However for you, I'm sure that such things as logic, methodology, facts, and ethics are really not that important. You are just an obsessed Bush hater, who would throw everything to the wind just to thumb his nose at Bush.

I see. So what you are saying is that because Bush was wrong about the Al Qaeada - Saddam connection then all US allies should naturally fall. Well if you are trying to come up with the most dumb theory on the board that one was not bad, but you're going to have to try a little harder if you want to succeed.

A powerful source. A person in charge of handling the money for one of the arrested leaders of the opposition, says that the charges against the opposition are absurd. I mean wow, I can't think of a more clear exoneration than that.

I commend you for proving me right. From your source:

No mention of just one meeting as the sole basis for the government's charge.

It's also rather amusing that you seem to be defending this man:

This is the basis of your claims:

However, we just don't know enough to say that this conference at May 4th is the ONLY thing that government alleges or uncovered in their investigation on those opposition members. It is not clear from the language used, that this is the case either.

So, you just don't have the support you need to be making the bold and aggressive charges against the US that you earlier tried.

So they found 400 grams of heroin on him as well. Are you going to say that the police set him up?

? What else should I think, if you just prove it in your next words?


Of course I do not belive in this- anybody who believes in democracy working in a country where you can persuade the population to vote for anybody who'll promise more to eat for the next day is not really clever
By the way - I said nothing about educational standarts- I spoke about POLITICAL education- it means, that politic-educated society might understand that a government has to raise taxes or to establish other unpopular practices and support the government by doing the inescapable- the political wild society- like the Georgians are...or Iraqis or other similar will allways immediate succes or choose another leader-.



My "doesn't matter" was concearning your acceptance of the accusation origin don't try to pervert my words

maybe you should start to read more carefully? The sources were given not to prove my words, but to show official accusations so you had to see, that nothing more is said than the accusation of ONE meeting more than 4 months ago!



Haha nice hope
Not more impressed than by any notorical liar to the commonality
Don't waste your time on trying to catch me with such primitive techniques
Iraq is the mirror of the US Foreign politics if you like it or not as it was and still is the most important foreign projekt of your Government...
If you like we can change "Iraq" to "War on terrorism" and we will have the same effect.
Look - obviously we aren't able to find any evidences for the Georgian situation, as the government is saying on thing (without presenting even one of their "all needed evidences" to the public), and the opposition is saying - it is all absurd (and present some alibis, but not for everybody from the accused).
So we have to do same that any court would do in such case- to work with indices - and ALL of them are against the government.
Your position is like this a judge, not willing to imprison a child abuser only because of missing a hand written, notarized confession of guilty, inspite of indices that he was already previously convicted in similar case, was seen near the child several time, and so on.
Thats why I compared this story with the behaviour of your country to Iraq and not as you hoped because I was not able to prove my words



What a strange conclusion...and after such posting you blame me on my idea about black/white???




Obviously not! As any bad guy he allways has to carry something of the "bad stuff" with him every day- especially when preparing to blow up a building...how to do this without half a kilo of heroin!?

I do nothing of the sort. This is just the result of your rabid hate for Bush and possibly for the US as a whole.

So then you are saying that Georgia should be ruled how? By an authoritarian government? Should they be oligarchs or just one military strongman?

No, they said that they were plotting. People who defend the opposition point to ONE charge that is partially incorrect. This might actually imply that there are more charges we have not yet heard. Given that this opposition group's leader does heroin and has past ties with a man who is charged with attempted assasination, I'd say it's not a good sign for them.

You ensnare yourself. I only need to show you a mirror.

That might fool simple European minds, but I don't think changing labels really matters.

Pretty pathetic fallacy. You mention that not agreeing with you is the same thing as enabling pedophilia. I guess you were tracked into the trade schools in the German education system and not the elite. The Hauptschule and not the Gymnasium.

You have presented no proof, and your only argument is that since there is no connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam as Bush said, and that anyone who disagrees with you is as bad as a pedophile, so therefore Saakashvili is abusing his powers and the US should be ashamed. That's some of the worst logic I've ever seen, even on this board.

I'm not saying you're idea is black and white, but just dumb, see the above paragraph.

Well, I guess every amazing criminal is really innocent after all then. Since their crime is so amazing, then it must not be true and it was really the government who was behind it all.

Nonsense - It seems its just your preferred way- if somebody criticize the behaviour of your country really hard - than its of course only because he is a Bush-hater



Look, if you are really interested- in countries like Georgia there is usually no chance for western-stamped democracy as the feeling for democracy first has to grow up in each one elector. The best example WHO and HOW Georgia would be ruled if it vote without pressure from any side shows the Ukraine- the power is divided pretty half/half. Shevardnadze was certainly not the best president, but the country was stabile and obviously not so poor.
Finally how you can dare to speak about US-ALLY Georgia when mr.Soros officially pays the salary of Georgian government???



LOL of course they said that they were plotting, but the only concrete "evidence" for this "plotting" is this one meeting -is it so hard for you to understand?
That’s why I gave you the links to Rustavi2 - look by yourself if you will find there any other "evidences" or concrete accusations.


this answer doesn't make sense...not realized yet?




Here the same- you pick out one sentence and then you avoid concrete answer by trying to hide yourself behind pretty primitive sarcasms



Wow! Finally you show your real arguments in this discussion
Hide yourself behind simulated incomprehension
Roll eyes as much as you like - I give you another analogy- maybe than it is simpler for you

Just imagine a policeman- after a bank robbery he would see nearby the place a 20+ years bugger beating up a 10 years old child who is speaking to him - "look I'm obviously not guilty as I just found this AK, this mask and this Grenades by this boy- wait a bit, after I was beating him up a bit more - he certainly will confess that he is the robber" Let me guess- you would believe the bugger?
Don't even try to say it is incomparable- what is so different to the case where some people, half of them in the retirement age are accused to be have prepared a revolution done with their own hands (if you like it or not- the official accusation means exactly this, and not only being the brain of a massive plot)

No dear W.E.B. First -I gave enough indices.
Second- take an unemotional look- first they are Al Quaeda contacts in Iraq, than there are chemical and biological weapons in Iraq, than they are no torture in US-lead prisons in Iraq and Guantanamo, later there are NO secret CIA-flights/kidnappings all over the world...than there are NO secret US-prisons outside the USA... these all are official lies of Bush/Bush's government to the world of the last 1-3 years, which were later admitted because of evidences impossible to decline were shown to the world.
And after all this you dare to say "ONLY because the statements to Iraq were false..."...There is no wonder if a US-made regime follows your examples - as your government was inventing false dossiers, false accusations and so on on a large scale to achieve their aims - why should they do diffrent than?
Ignoring of such facts is not reasonable- I think because the majority of Americans understand this- Bush's rating is the lowest ever.
Only few hard-liners (you seems to be one of them too ) still hold the line in the pathetic war on terrorism (terrorism is obviously anything and anywhere Bush do not like)!




aha, so it is absolutely logical to you, when a guy takes about half a kilo of heroin when he is on the way to blow up a building???
The next step would be, he takes a notarized confession of guilty when going out for such project.

Of course it seems that way to someone like you. It appears that you are one of those students in Germany's education system who is in the lowest Hauptschule tier, and thus you are not so capable of understanding things like logic or politics.

Your logic is so incredibly sloppy that it cannot be taken seriously. Your logic is to just say that because something is happening in one country, that it should work the exact same in a different country. You say that because the vote in the Ukraine is split half and half, then it should naturally be half and half in Georgia. This is totally absurd. How the vote will turn out depends on dozens of variables, none of which include how a vote turned out for different politicians in different countries. What is relevant is the character of the politician, their policies, the income distribution of the population, the ethnic distribution of the population, the religious distribution of the population, campaign financing, as well as random events (i.e. 9/11).

WRT your comments about how dare I.....Your comment does not even make any gramatical sense. In any case, I think you are being misleading about Soros' payment of goverment officials. Most of the salaries of Gerogian officials is paid by outsiders, by the UN. People may contribute to THE UN to pay their salaries. Soros is BUT ONE contributor. You also ommit why the UN has such a program, but hey you just want to be dishonest about this, so I understand.

Your links did not reinforce your claims at all, as I explained to you earlier.

As with this comment that lacks English fluency, the "not realized yet" problem you have also probably is due to a lack of English fluency.

My putdowns are better than yours.

The complete lack of logic and intelligence in your comments is simple for me, regardless of which way you try to argue. Your analogies do make it simpler to see the lack of logic or sense in your claims, I do agree to that.

You cannot compare a randomly made up example of a bank robbery to national politics.

Apparently you do not "understand." Your "indices" contained NOTHING to reinforce your claims. I've already explained this to you in a previous post. See? That's why you are in the Hauptschule and not the Gymnasium.

I don't need to argue the War on Terrorism or Iraq here. It's off-topic. I argue each case and the politics of each country on its own merits. I'm sure that I would find your comments on Iraq and the WOT to be lacking, but let's stick to the topic here. Also, your logical structure is a fallacy. You cannot determine that what is happening in Georgia is wrong, because of the US-Iraq War and the War on Terrorism. Those are separate events.

You ASSUME he was on his way to blow up the building at the time. From the reports you showed, it seemed that these opposition group leaders were caught in the planning stages of their plot. There was nothing that I saw in your sources that said they were caught DIRECTLY BEFORE an imminent attack on the government.

Again, you started this thread to say that the coup charges are a farce. You then went on to criticize the US for some reason. However, you simply do not know if the coup charges are a farce or totally accurate. You just do not know and you do not even have enough evidence to be compelling. So your initial comments are all invalid.