Canadians blame US foreign policy for 9/11 - Page 15 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

jpsartre12 · #**211** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbailey65

I'd like to see evidence backing your dubious claim. Was the population of Iraq polled before they were invaded?

No, they weren't polled. Would you expect a nation under the thumb of one of the 20th century's most brutal dictators to tell you what they really thought, anyway?

The real proof of what the people wanted came after SH was ousted. They pulled down his statue en masse, pounded on it with their shoes and danced in the streets. And the majority of Iraqis still think that ousting SH was the right thing to do, despite what you may read in the press.

Marcus1124 · #**212** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

Andrewl
Are you talking about the same military that shoots babies in the head? The same military that torutes people. The same military that shoots civilians first, asks questions later, the same military the flattened Fallujah.... yeah right, gimme a break. Nice propoganda though.

Andrew

Any any real evidence you can provide to back up those claims I guarnatee you will also show that it is the exception, rather than the rule, and representative of indivdual crimes, and not the primary tactic of the entire force.

That you seriously think there is even shred of moral equivalence between the United States and the terrorists proves that you have absolutely no sense of perspective, and are just really warped morally.

Andrewl · #**213** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus1124

Any any real evidence you can provide to back up those claims I guarnatee you will also show that it is the exception, rather than the rule, and representative of indivdual crimes, and not the primary tactic of the entire force.

The behavior of american soldiers in iraq has been atrocious. The image you posted is actually the exception, not the rule.

But another example would be the bombing of the pakistani village with predator drones. This was a cowardly act by technocrats, and it killed more than a dozen women and children on the suspicion (still unconfirmed) that a terrorist might be having dinner there. That image contrasts rather sharply with the propoganda you posted. Even you should recognize that.

Quote:

That you seriously think there is even shred of moral equivalence between the United States and the terrorists proves that you have absolutely no sense of perspective, and are just really warped morally.

America partakes in state terrorism all the time. Just ask people who grew up in Nicaragua in the '80s, and were unfortunate enough to be tortured by CIA backed right wing terrorists. The US gov is a consistent backer of some of the most awful governments the world has ever known. And it continues in the former soviet sattelites who happen to be in the path of brand new oil pipelines directed towards the west.

But no, there is no moral equivalence between say you and me, average joes, average arabs, and the actions of terrorists (including your government). We are all far better than them.

But in the complete lack of morals your government has, and the complete lack of morals of terrorists, there is definitely equivalence.

Andrew

tamperpr00f · #**214** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

The United States does not target civilians and non combatants terrorists do.
The United States, more than any other nation in the world, sheds its blood, expends it's resources, and suffers the abuses of other nations in an ongoing struggle to preserve human life, and promote human freedom and dignity. There is no nation on the face our planet that cares more for the peoples of earth than the United States. Is America sinless, free of all selfishness, and clean of innocent blood? No America is not sinless perfection. But we are the closest any nation on this planet will come.

We shall see you and I in the end the truthfulness or falsehood of my beliefs, as for me I am done with this post.

Marcus1124 · #**215** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

Andrewl
The behavior of american soldiers in iraq has been atrocious. The image you posted is actually the exception, not the rule.

But another example would be the bombing of the pakistani village with predator drones. This was a cowardly act by technocrats, and it killed more than a dozen women and children on the suspicion (still unconfirmed) that a terrorist might be having dinner there. That image contrasts rather sharply with the propoganda you posted. Even you should recognize that.

You don't even have the intellectual capacity to realize that your own post contradicts you morally putrid opinion. You said it yourself, the attack of the Afghan village was NOT intended to target innocent civilians, but on the belief that there were legitimate targets (targets who INTENTIONALLY hide and immorally use innocent civilians as human shields). The terrorists on the other hand SPECIFICALLY target innocent civilians for the very fact that they ARE innocent civilians.

bcbailey65 · #**216** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpsartre12

No, they weren't polled. Would you expect a nation under the thumb of one of the 20th century's most brutal dictators to tell you what they really thought, anyway?

The real proof of what the people wanted came after SH was ousted. They pulled down his statue en masse, pounded on it with their shoes and danced in the streets. And the majority of Iraqis still think that ousting SH was the right thing to do, despite what you may read in the press.

I was being facetious about the polling. I agree that Saddam was a nasty man and that most Iraqis are glad to be rid of him. However, I don't think they are happy at how long the US has lingered. Would you be happy if someone invaded your country and then didn't leave and you had no say in it?

Andrewl · #**217** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamperpr00f

The United States does not target civilians and non combatants terrorists do.
The United States, more than any other nation in the world, sheds its blood, expends it's resources, and suffers the abuses of other nations in an ongoing struggle to preserve human life, and promote human freedom and dignity.

Its an ongoing struggle to preserve american power. This struggle has killed far more innocent civilians than any terror network combined. This is only a struggle to preserve corporate access to the worlds resources, to preserve american hegemony. This is not good vs. evil.

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There is no nation on the face our planet that cares more for the peoples of earth than the United States. Is America sinless, free of all selfishness, and clean of innocent blood? No America is not sinless perfection. But we are the closest any nation on this planet will come.

Wow. The propoganda runs really deep in your blood. You are the definition of extreme jingoism.

Quote:

We shall see you and I in the end the truthfulness or falsehood of my beliefs, as for me I am done with this post.

We will both be judged by god whe the rapture comes, wont we? Do you you belong to a mega-church?

Andrew

bcbailey65 · #**218** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus1124

Hey, you are the one who refered to Sun Tzu that the best and most lasting victory is one with no blood spilled at all. The best general defeats his enemy before the battle is fought. And that would have been fine, had you left it at that, since it merely rates that type of victory as preferable to other types. But you then went further and added your own observation "Killing isn't victory."

Well I am sorry, but just because you don't have the perfect storm of complete and utter defeat of your enemy without bloodshed does not mean that it isn't victory. It might not be the IDEAL victory, but it is victory.

We did a whole lot of killing in WWII, and guess what, it was a victory, period.

Well, thus far I have not seen a single thing to suggest that you are not predisposed to be opposed to war at any and all costs, especially based on that simplistic "killing is not victory" comment.

Wow, that shows a tremendous lack of perspective. Hitler was evil, Chamberlain was merely naive and wrong, and while his actions may have caused immeasurable harm, he, unlike Hitler was not a bad or malevolent person.

Chamberlain is synonymous with peace as a synonym for surrender, or "killing isn't victory" as you put it.

By the way, going back to my earlier point about how utterly naive it is to bye into the excuse that the extremists are driven to it by U.S. Policy, here is another public service announcement, brought to you be the "religion of peace":

Killing the bad guys makes us feel good? God help us if you're religious to boot. Then you'd be a carbon copy of Al-quaeda. One deserves the other in my books.

bcbailey65 · #**219** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamperpr00f

The United States does not target civilians and non combatants terrorists do.
The United States, more than any other nation in the world, sheds its blood, expends it's resources, and suffers the abuses of other nations in an ongoing struggle to preserve human life, and promote human freedom and dignity. There is no nation on the face our planet that cares more for the peoples of earth than the United States. Is America sinless, free of all selfishness, and clean of innocent blood? No America is not sinless perfection. But we are the closest any nation on this planet will come.

We shall see you and I in the end the truthfulness or falsehood of my beliefs, as for me I am done with this post.

For God's sakes get over yourself yankee! You're no better than a Canadian or a Brit or a Frenchman or an Iraqi. Join the planet bozo.

Andrewl · #**220** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus1124

You don't even have the intellectual capacity to realize that your own post contradicts you morally putrid opinion. You said it yourself, the attack of the Afghan village was NOT intended to target innocent civilians, but on the belief that there were legitimate targets (targets who INTENTIONALLY hide and immorally use innocent civilians as human shields). The terrorists on the other hand SPECIFICALLY target innocent civilians for the very fact that they ARE innocent civilians.

Im sorry it is too difficult for you to see the difference between the image you posted of american soldiers bravely giving their lives for innocent civilians, and the cruel ease with which some coward in florida can murder innocent women and children with absolutely no danger at all to himself. Or we can contrast the people in Fallujah who were killed in their sleep by WP, their skin burned away while their clothes remained intact? Is that really the image of the brave soldier who protects with his own life that of an innocent civilian? Or how about the soldiers who blow up cars on the highway full of innocent people who just panicked or got confused by the screaming english invaders? Is that the image of a brave american soldier giving his life for the innocent foreigner?

Your propoganda was bullshit, and it was creepy.

Andrew

bcbailey65 · #**221** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamperpr00f

Since when is war an issue of legality? We went to war with Saddam Hussein because we felt threatened by an Iraq under his control.

You lied to the UN about the reason you wanted to invade Iraq and you told those who weren't in agreement that you're "either with us or against us." Give me a break.

bcbailey65 · #**222** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamperpr00f

AQ isn't a national entity therefore they do not have the authority to formally declare war. The actions of AQ are terrorism and are illegal because they violate American law.

If something is against US law it is illegal internationally and yet if the US breaks international law it's not illegal? Give your head a shake, and learn to think logically.

bcbailey65 · #**223** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamperpr00f

National entites (countries) have the ability to make law and declare war. Groups of violent extremists not directly affiliated with any specific nation (terrorists) have no capacity to do either.

Furthermore, it is your argument that American policy is the cause of terrorist attacks and as an example you cite our invasion of Iraq, which happened only after the September eleventh attacks. Perhaps those who are unable to track the basic order of events shouldn't hurl insults?

What does Iraq have to do with 9/11 you moron? NOTHING. Get an education - you're embarassing yourself for all to see.

doniston · #**224** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbailey65

Killing the bad guys makes us feel good? God help us if you're religious to boot. Then you'd be a carbon copy of Al-quaeda. One deserves the other in my books.

Actually he seems to think that signature comment is a funny joke. He has defended it that way to me in the past. and that is primarily why I have such a low opinion of him.

Marcus1124 · #**225** (**permalink**) 09-19-2006

Quote:

doniston
Actually he seems to think that signature comment is a funny joke. He has defended it that way to me in the past. and that is primarily why I have such a low opinion of him.

Coming from someone who is such an extremist that you would oppose lying to a terrorist prisoner to trick them into giving us potentially life saving information? Your low opinion of me is a badge of honor!

Even though the quote comes from Boston Legal, and is said somewhat in jest, I make certainly would not make ANY apologies for feeling good if someone I loved was being held hostage by someone with a gun and I managed to shot that person and save the life of my loved one. I sure as hell wouldn't feel bad about it.

And given that you seem more concerned and bent out of shape and ready to think poorly of someone ofr posting a quote FROM A COMEDY ON NETWORK TELEVISION then someone who clearly sees no moral distinction between the United States and Terrorists really shows how utterly pathetic and fucked up your priorities and sensibilities are.

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