Madlib, is it not more than apparent that it is nearly impossibile to conduct a conversation without personal assaults, half-truths and lies from those who hold opposing points of view ?

From what I have seen in many threads in this forum it is customary, and almost honourary, to assault each other in these and in other ways.

I have given up posting anything which I consider might offer a glimmer of enlightenment, or at the very least an alternative perspective on an issue. I am tired of the abuse and narrow mindedness that is exposed in many of their responses.

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Madlib, Americans actually believe that they exist in the most democratically correct and superior economic system on the face of the earth. For them, America is #1 in the world and there is absolutely nothing that you or I can say that will convince them otherwise.

It won't be until they experience the travesties of their system on a personal level that their beliefs in their supposed superior political and value systems will be brought into question.

If enough of their personal belief systems are shatterred there will develop a break in the unchallenged discursive terrain that dominates American chatter. It will be into this "vacant moral vacuum", a point just beyond "critical mass", that opportunites will arise, alternatives will be proposed, and where new leaders will emerge who can articulate paradigms for the new American century.

The American Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement are examples of moments in American history where their society convulsed inwardly and was put through a meat grinder of self inflicted violence. Let us all hope that this present day moral vacuum does not require resolution in that direction.

Let us hope that these current standard bearers of America, and the state of affairs in which Americans find themselves, represents the absolute bottom in terms of moral and political self absorption. For if it is not, then you can expect things to get much, much worse.

Our best hope as a global community is for America to accept itself for what it is, as a worthy and one of many, ongoing experiments in the organization of large, nation-based collectives.

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I honestly believe that we are, at times, mimics of what we hear and what we see. My hope is that America finds for itself a new leader who is simply that, a man or woman who can explain their situation truthfully to his or her own people, who has the will and intellectual acuteness to challenge nationally damaging alternative points of view, and who is an honest and good representative for their country within the global community.

American absoluteness is everyone's enemy.

[Stumper]

One must be stupid not to see that US foreign policy was one of the root causes of 9/11. Not that Bin Laden was trained and funded by the US, not that the US presence in Saudi Arabia also was certainly one of the reasons for Bin Laden's hatred for the US.

__________________
"I think that gay marriage should be allowed."
- John McCain on an episode of Hardball, 2006, before the commercial break

"I do not believe that gay marriage should be legal."
- John McCain on the same episode of Hardball, after the commercial break

"John McCain does not speak for the John McCain campaign."
- Tucker Bounds, Spokesman of the John McCain presidential campaign.

The straight talk express. You gotta love it.

Hey, Canadians put mayonnaise on hamburgers…

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Only a liberal would know how hard it is to get a nicotine patch to stick to a monkey.

canada blame the US for 911? what is new?
You have these guys who think they know what happen but do they?

Nay, perhaps you cannot see it, but the "attacks" are because, like your post, they are dripping with condescension.

Look at how many post from those outside of America, about Americans - have phrases and comments that can only lead to one assumption - American's are stupid, lazy people that think they are better than anyone.

And then look at what is said from these same people about cultures outside of America - more enlightened, smarter and better than Americans.

Also - consider: Those that choose to act, to take action - will always leave plenty of those that do not, to complain about.

I still find there are more who are open-minded than not, on this forum. There are a few who have their backs up when there are negative comments towards the US from foreigners. I rarely waste time with them as, like you say, they are unlikely to change their POV regardless of all the proof they are shown. By the same token, I also see this in others here but it seems to be more predominant because it is an American forum.

Also there are those here whom I consider on the other side of the aisle from my politics but I can still have a great discussion with such as Tim (good to see you on more lately), Gort, even Matt and some others. They provide me with their views in a positive manner and I understand their positions better than when someone simply bashes right out of the gate.

As for the OP, the events leading up to 9/11 may have been the result of US foreign policy, but I also keep in mind that that policy, for the most part, was also backed up by Canada for the most part, and we shared similar interests even if we did not participate directly. For example while Canada did not directly get involved in Vietnam, we were certainly in support of it, not only because the US was involved, but also it was a former territory of one of our founding nations, France.

In other words I don't fault the US for its foreign policy because we (Canada) was behind them 99% in most matters. It has only been in recent years that Canada has diverged from this support (could have been the dissolution of the USSR) and looked at our own interests first. What I do fault them on is not recognizing that a lot of what happens today in the world is the result of previous policies and that there should be more foresight before getting involved.

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Two-thirds of the world's lawyers practice in the US

I've been around since "Buy American" meant "Made in the USA".

What a strange comment. You appear to be rationalizing bin Laden's hatred of Americans. That rage and hatred led to the murder of thousands - including many who were not Americans; people from all over the world died that day.

Muslim terrorists dislike our foreign policy? Therefore they have reason to slaughter people in the middle of their work day? You hold Americans responsible for all of this, without exception.

Are there any circumstances where you would might at least disagree with the terrorists on anything? You are always willing to apologize for and defend the terrorists; you provide all sorts of reasons why they hate Americans. Why? Do you really believe in their cause? I find that hard to believe. Again - why?

Read your own original post again. Where do you go from there? I have mentioned on this forum before that I lived for many years in New England and grew up in the northeast US. I often went to Canada. I even had many positive experiences there. I had always thought of them as comparable to relatives who lived next door - we would argue as relatives do, by the connection was deeper than the argument.

Since 9/11, that is no longer the case - although I know many Canadians were gracious, generous and helpful at the time of the attack. I had a long discussion recently with a Canadian who now lives in the Netherlands but was visiting the US. We met through business, and our hour "lunch" turned into a three hour discussion about all of this. It was a fascinating talk. He reflected a lot of what I see here on the forum - that Canadians generally believe that Americans brought the attack on themselves. We disagreed strongly, but at least we talked.

What is genuinely shocking to me in all of this is the willingness of Canadians to perceive the terrorists as innocent victims - mere puppets of the Americans. This is disgraceful, and again, reflects a profound cowardice.

I would challenge you, as I do all those who absolve the terrorists of guilt, to go to NYC and tell the people of that city that the terrorists were mere victims.

Do you have the courage to stand up for your views?

This is merely a series of insults, one after the other - a veritable encyclopedia of grotesque steretypes, patronizing wisecracks and sheer, flamboyant hatred. This is is the sort of lunacy that I was referring to in my post. There are no thoughts here. You attempt to reduce an entire nation of 300 million people to a joke.

And you have the nerve to whine about the level of insults on this board? There is not a single serious point in your entire post, and not one genuine thought.

Again, this is mere cowardice and hatred - but it is enjoyable to indulge in this kind of trash-talk because you know there are is no price to pay. Shameless.

Do any of you guys really care if the Canadians or Euro-weenies think we are to blame?

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"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

President George W. Bush, 8-5-2004

Carolina Politics Online

THIS IS REAL HOPE AND CHANGE!

Really? And on what basis do you assume Canadians are "smarter" - as a group of course......

You choose OBL as your reference for truth - certainly a bizarre choice. And by the way - Canadians have also been the targets of terrorists attacks by the same Muslim terrorists. That does not make them any less "smart". It merely means that the cozy theory that blames Americans is garbage. Attempts to placate, patronize and soothe the terrorists will only bring out their contempt.

What are you talking about?

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

I think it does matter - yes.

Why?.

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"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

President George W. Bush, 8-5-2004

Carolina Politics Online

THIS IS REAL HOPE AND CHANGE!

Because it is part of our responsibility as a powerful, wealthy and influential nation, and as part of the world, to remain in discussion with other nations. We have many ties - through business, personal realtions, education, tradition, language, law and culture. Some of those ties are much weaker than they used to be, but the business ties are stronger.

I do think that the relationship with Canada is so bad that it will be many years before it is healed; it may never happen. But we can't ignore each other. We don't have that luxury.