It's always good to read your posts, Zedrow. I agree with much of what you say. There will be times when our nations diverge in both policy and intent. That is inevitable. What concerns me is the tendency to move beyond merely disagreeing with US foreign policy to the point of actually moving the blame for 9/11 to Americans rather than the terrorists. I know that is not the view of most Canadians, but I do see it here on the forum rather often.

Just in case some people don't know, "facts" are supposed to be true. Just for the record, the CIA NEVER trained Osama bin Laden (read Peter Bergen's book "Holy War Inc)" and the Taliban wasn't installed by the US government to fight the Soviets. A simple timeline would be enough on this one.

The US government never directly aided Afghanistan in its fight against the Soviets. Any support was made by donating money to the Afghan army via the Pakistani government, who distributed the money at its own discretion.

I'm not convinced that 9/11 was caused by biased American foreign policy in the Middle East. 9/11 was caused and carried out my Muslim extremists, the majority of which were Saudis who led typical Western-style middle-class lives (if not better, even).

When did "taking responsibility for ones own actions" become such a foreign concept to most people nowadays? It never seems to be an option nowadays when discussing America's place in the world. I used to think blaming society, the government, my teachers, my parents, other people, etc. was the way to go until I realized the only one holding me back and screwing me up was myself. It was my own fault. The U.S. has a lot less responsbility for the fate of the people in the MidEast than the individual governments themselves. Maybe they should start being blamed for their political failures.

Anyways, that's it for my first post. It's nice to meet you all. Feel free to flame away.

You act as if American policy is just peachy and could never piss off anyone. You act like you were attacked because people simply hate your freedoms. How naive can you get?

Your damn right about that one. Mabye you shoudl take your own advice?

I prefer to blame the attacks on the attackers themselves. Whether terrorists like or dislike our policies is not a reason to slaughter thousands. You may choose to blame Americans - that is your prerogative. I cannot possibly agree with you. As to why you avoid placing responsibility on the attackers themselves - that is your choice.

Tim and e-Duane are right. The blame for the actual attack lies with the attackers. But many of you are making a mistake in logic:

America's foreign policy ≠ America

Madlib has expressed concern with only one aspect of America. There are many more that are pleasant and that he agrees with and he as much as said so. You're jumping to conclusions and you're all dogpiling on Madlib for no good reason.

I would not say it is dogpiling - and he has several posters who agree with him. I did not see anything in his posts that indicate that the terrorists are to blame. Those who blame American foreign policy rarely acknowledge any blame at all on the part of the terrorists themselves. That is the part that is missing.

First off I do have to clarify one of my positions, regardless of whether or not any US policy caused 9-11 I certainly do not condone the terrorists actions, it was unprovoked and frankly nothing ever justifies the murder of innocent civilians.

Nobody is disagreeing with you that the perpetrators of the attack are the terrorists and furthermore nobody has condoned the killing of anyone ...contrary to what you hope for. Unfortunately, you are unable to comprehend the fact that if you get enough people angry at you, people will commit crimes against you. While that doesn't justify the crimes it should make one understand that you bring them upon yourself. The logical conclusion is hence:

Which you said yourself. Reality means "Hey mabye if we stop screwing with the middle east, there will be less future terrorists".

It takes two to screw.

If the United States government -with reference to its foreign policy - is screwing the various goverments of the Middle East, well, then the various Middle Eastern governments are providing the lube.

As much as I am against pain, violence and war, I'm not naive enough to believe the entire world can live according to the communist manifesto. We are people, we are selfish and we want what we want. War is a part of the circle of life and Darwin's belief in the "survival of the fittest." I would also tend to side with Western countries who, when fighting a war, still have the decency to rely on conventional warfare.

Maybe Israel would react differently if Hamas stopped sending suicide bombers into crowded pubs and shopping malls in Tel Aviv or Jeruselum in order to deliberately kill innocent people. Maybe Iran, Lebanon and Syria would receive more dialogue if it stopped demanding for the destruction of Israel.

Why was the American government blamed for the hardships experienced by Iraqis supposedly brought on by U.S. imposed sanctions? Saddam Hussein was still living like a king despite sactions. Why isn't he to blame for ignoring the pleas of his citizens?

Now you have Muslims killing Muslims, Iraqis killing Iraqis on the streets of Baghdad and the United States is being blamed for it. And while the U.S.-led war created the conditions to allow what's happening, at the end of the day the responsibility lays in the hands of the people commiting the violence, who are failing miserably due to their own wants and prejudices. They had their chance . . . . and blew it.

I'm not saying I agree with the U.S. government. I'm not a Bush fan. But I don't understand this "let's blame America" attitude. The ones responsible for 9/11, the suicide bombing in Israel and the killing on the streets of Iraq are the perpetrators themselves.

Enough rambling . . .

The fundamental problem with your position is stated here. You really seem to believe that 9/11 was a reasonable response to foreign policy. I will never agree with this. The perpetrators of 9/11 were not pathetic victims that need the support and defense of others. They are brutal and sadistic murderers. I find your romantic view of terrorists to be reprehensible. You may present them as victims, but it will not convince them to like Canadians. They are NOT victims. We will never agree.

"Thankful 4 US domination"? Very funny..

Canada was the target of a plot in June that was uncovered in time. Would you then hold Canadians responsible for this, if it had succeeded? I certainly would not.

Very well said indeed - the need to blame Americans is also a need to perceive the world as reasonable and fair. It is sheer cowardice, and it is especially discouraging to find it so prevalent on this forum.

Umm... excuse me... but the discussion concerns AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY, not Americans themselves.

It was a very tiny group of men in the EXECUTIVE wing of your goverment that launched this ill fated Iraq / middle east fiasco. Do you really believe that ordinary American citizens, en masse, had any input into the ultimate decision making process of going to war ?

Give me a break and wake up !

- - - - - - - - -

I have been doing some research and ...

• the fact that most of the hijackers were of Saudi origin
• the fact the bin Laden actually denied any involvement at the outset
• the fact that bin Laden's supposed terrorist network does not have huge corporate styled financial tentacles throughout the world, but is more a global movement of very disgruntled Muslims, equivalent to the likes of the anti-globalization movement
• the fact that there are serious rumblings of discontent within the Saudi kingdom
• the fact that most of the U.S. military personel in Saudi have been directed to wear civilian clothing and to not display themselves in dress uniform
• the fact that 4 of the hijackers resided in an area in close proximity to the offices of WAMY (World Assembly of Muslim Youth)
• the fact that Abdullah bin Laden is/was the president and treasurer of WAMY
• the fact that Abdullah bin Laden and his brother Omar lived at 3411 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, Virginia
• the fact that WAMY offices were nearby at the address 5613 Leesburg Pike
• the fact the 4 hijackers lived just 3 blocks down the road at 5913 Leesburg

... all lead me to the conclusion that perhaps GWB is fighting the war in the wrong place(s). In fact, his dear friends in the House of Saud, while financing these Bush adventures with trillions of petro dollars, may at the same time be harbouring unreported civil unrest that served as the catalyst for the 9-11 attacks.

[Stumper]

My next question is whether or not the Israelis in fact knew of the plot, and were even seen jumping with excitement within the vicinity of the New York as the attack unfolded.

Moreover, it has been documented (i can't find the page) that some people of Jewish origin were alerted to not go to work that day.

And finally, why did the American security services allow that plane to depart 2 days after the tragedy, when all flights in the USA were to have been grounded ?

And the plot thickens.

[Stumper]

Alright Even I know that the United States cannot just declare war on Saudi Arabia. First they are one of our major oil suppliers. Second, the mulsim world hates us enough because we just have troops stationed in the country. Invading Saudi Arabia would be the worst political move ever.

__________________
"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

This is September 11th. Please - can you just let up for one day with this stuff? Just out of decency and courtesy - regardless of how you perceive Americans. It's only one day.