Thanks for taking the time to explain as thoroughly as you do here. I don't think we will ever agree on this - I really do believe you are blaming the wrong people for the attack. Our discussion really represents two entirely different views of the world.

You actually go even further with this post and claim that the "average citizen" is responsible. It seems to me that you are trying to find a reasonable cause-and-effect between the nihilism of a terrorist group that has broken ties with civilization and the actions that follow from their nihilism: their absolute contempt for human life. You cannot (will not?) accept this and continue, along with others on this thread, to hold Americans responsible.

As a result, you come up with the idea that American citizens share blame for 9/11. This is sheer madness - insulting and offensive - yet you hold to this view. I know that you believe the same about my views. There is no meeting place between us on this. But at least we have clarified and explained our views here.

Which terrorist organisation was mislabled as Al Queda by Rebublicans? (just asking).

If they support each other's causes, yet don't communicate (sounds unlikely), I still have no problem with giving them a common label. People within a political group like republicans have different causes, possibly don't communicate, and still get grouped. It's all for reasons of language & easy to use semantics. These labels may be too general for for some usage, sure, but that is a matter for the speaker.

This is too vague for me to argue with. We already treat them as criminals in many ways, so you'll have to point out the other ways we treat them that you dislike.

This is certainly true of US support for Saudi. And this is US foreign policy and thus, the Canadians cited in the poll are not wrong at all

Problem is, Canada also supports the Saudis. I find that Canadians don't really know much about foreign policy, they just have a general sense that the US is aggressive and makes people mad. Canada is not aggressive, so they think this makes Canada well-liked. The facts are that Al Qaeda hates Canada for reasons they can't even imagine. Such as your participation of in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, which Al Qaeda is opposed to.

Methinks the US Government has indeed done a few deeds over the years that may have had the effect of "inciting crazies" to murder US interests in retribution (i.e. 'blowback').


That's projection. No one in AL Qaeda wants to kill us for anything we actually did wrong. None of them care about Allende or Mossadegh or Kyoto. Every act they hate us for is something that most Westerners support. Such as the first Gulf War, the containment strategy that followed, and support for a two state solution.

There is no reason to link these disparate groups other than our Western need to link these disparate groups. There is no evidence whatsoever that these groups are linked by anything other than some vague similarities of method and claims of support for each other's causes. The are both criminals and ought to be treated as such. Inventing some world-wide conspiracy is a game for playing the 'politics of fear' and serves no purpose save a domestic political one.


Al Qaeda has its finger in many pies. I think it's a fair question to ask why Al Qaeda participates in the Sudanese civil war, Chechnya, Kashmir, Thailand, and other conflicts. If racism and dreams of Islamic superiority explain those actions by Al Qaeda, why is a different explanation necessary to explain their attacks on the West?

(Emphasis mine)

Tim, let me ask you, why would someone like OBL decide to leave his home, his income source, and his eventual inheritance to instead fund and organize a group whose sole purpose is to attack the US?

He is a very smart individual, able to avoid capture, unlike Saddam, able to run a profitable business that has afforded him the opportunity to fund these acts and also able to increase support for his cause, so I question why he would just out of the blue decide to form an orgaization to damage the US if there was no reason to do so. Surely he must have had some incentive or an incident that made him turn from being a US ally to a foe.

Unless I have misread many sources, the primary reason was because of the US involvement in ME politics and, more specifically in his case, the presence of US bases in Saudi Arabia. If you have different information it is news to me and I would love to learn more about it but in looking at these facts it seems that it indeed was US foreign policy that perpetuated his resolve.

Just in case I am not clear on my position towards AQ (or other terrorist groups for that matter) I do not agree with his/their tactics in the least and condone every life taken in attacks associated with AQ so I am certainly not on their side over the US. I will also say though that if the US avoided getting involved in ME politics we would likely not have seen the events of 911.

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Two-thirds of the world's lawyers practice in the US

I've been around since "Buy American" meant "Made in the USA".

Bin Laden was never directly tied with the US in the afghan war. While it is true thatr he benefitted from the use of US weapons, the US dealt with another muslim fundamentalist and not Bin Laden. Eitherway, the US and the Islamic Fundamentalists in afghanistan were only temporarily aligned. The Islamicists reviled the US as much as they do now.

It is true that they focus on the US because of our policies. But that doesn't mean that they would stop terrorizing people if we stop interfering. The truth is that sunni Islamicists want to rule the world, specifically the muslim world. The US is seen as a hinderance and not their ultimate enemy. That is the shia and other muslims who do not agree with their strict view of Islam.

Europe is going to be hit hard by Al Queda. They are secular, liberal, socially pluralistic countries. Societies which run in direct contrast to what Al Queda and other fundamentalist groups stand for.

The US has toi change its foreign policy. There is no doubting that. But Islam itself has to drastically alter where its going because ther religion is being hijacked by a small number of extremists who are only going to bring more misery, more humiliation, more cultural degradation, to a proud, culturally rich, society. It really doesn't matter what the US, UN, or Europe does because even if we left the ME tomorrow, the Fundamentalists would still be there. They would still be capable of causing a great deal of destruction and mayhem. The threat would still exist.

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Tim, let me ask you, why would someone like OBL decide to leave his home, his income source, and his eventual inheritance to instead fund and organize a group whose sole purpose is to attack the US?



That's not his organization's sole purpose. Al Qaeda is engaged on many fronts against many enemies, including China, Russia, India, Israel, the US, Europe, Thailand, the Phillipines, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting. Oh yeah, Africa.

I will also say though that if the US avoided getting involved in ME politics we would likely not have seen the events of 911.


Well first, we all are involved in ME politics. That's kinda the point of the UN is that every nation is now involved in every other nation's business.

That is accurate. It's active in Malaysia and Indonesia too (basically all Muslim areas frankly). For example, the Bali bombing had little to do with the US, but was aimed at harming Australians and others. The Big Elephant as to why 9.11 wasn't just about anti-US sentiment was the target itself. The complex was the World Trade Center--packed with multinationals--thus explaining the wide number of nations who lost citizens there. It caused huge personal fear and economic damage around the world as intended. Simultaneously AQ manipulated the stock markets in Europe to capitalise on its prior knowledge of what it intended to do.

I just don't agree with your basic premise. I simply don't accept the idea that if only we try to please the terrorists and work out policies that will fit with their agenda, we will somehow get on their "good side" and they will leave us alone. They are not really filled with love underneath and just waiting for us to be "nice" and stop abusing them. That fantasy of "terrorists as victims of America" is something I will never agree with. Never. I am stunned that so many people - Canadians and others - find comfort and try to make sense of the world by taking refuge in this nonsense.

As to why OBL does what he does - you can attempt to "understand" him if you like. I am not interested in figuring out his thinking so we can change our policies. The nihilism of Al Qaeda is a ferocious, obsessive hatred that cannot be understood.

Have you seen the film of the terrorists visiting the WTC in order to work out the details of their upcoming slaughter? Are you going to tell me that they said one day "We don't like US policies. Let's murder thousands, take over planes and smash into NYC and the pentagon and terrorize people in the middle of their work day so we can protest those policies"?

There is no dialogue with nihilism. Your description of him "leaving home" is quite bizarre.

I am surprised that you are on this bandwagon as well. Surprising and disappointing.

[quote=Tim;799744]I just don't agree with your basic premise. I simply don't accept the idea that if only we try to please the terrorists and work out policies that will fit with their agenda, we will somehow get on their "good side" and they will leave us alone. They are not really filled with love underneath and just waiting for us to be "nice" and stop abusing them. That fantasy of "terrorists as victims of America" is something I will never agree with. Never. I am stunned that so many people - Canadians and others - find comfort and try to make sense of the world by taking refuge in this nonsense.

As to why OBL does what he does - you can attempt to "understand" him if you like. I am not interested in figuring out his thinking so we can change our policies. The nihilism of Al Qaeda is a ferocious, obsessive hatred that cannot be understood.

Have you seen the film of the terrorists visiting the WTC in order to work out the details of their upcoming slaughter? Are you going to tell me that they said one day "We don't like US policies. Let's murder thousands, take over planes and smash into NYC and the pentagon and terrorize people in the middle of their work day so we can protest those policies"?

There is no dialogue with nihilism. Your description of him "leaving home" is quite bizarre.

I am surprised that you are on this bandwagon as well. Surprising and disappointing.[/QUOTE

That is a fantasy. But what we can and HAVE to do, is try to get inside of their heads. We analyze serial killers, rapists, murderers, terrorists, etc, so we develop ways to combat them. They are like a disease. In order to "cure" the disease, you first understand how the disease is created,develops and progresses.

The causes of 9-11 are many and varied. US foreign policy is but one reason. Not by any stretch the sole reason or even the main reason, but a significant factor nonetheless.

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Well put. Thank you. I only believe that American citizens share blame to the extent that we didn't ask enough questions of our leaders. It seems to me that most Americans don't pay a whole lot of attention to foreign policy as long as the economy remains stable. That statement included me up until 9/11. I think it's important to own up to the fact that maybe we should have been asking those questions before now. If we don't ever admit to making mistakes, there is never an opportunity to learn how not to repeat them.

The attacks were caused by the terrorists. They were an unreasonable response. I've said that more than once in this thread. Maybe our views are not as different as they seem.

Where you go wrong is thinking that changes to our foreign policy will make the terrorists hate us less.

Generally true. Changes in present US foreign policy cannot be undertaken overnight and those existing terrorists are not likely to change their minds.

However, when it comes to creating the next generation of terrorists, methinks it might be prudent of the US Government to spare a thought for the safety and security of their own citizenry and endeavour to reduce the likelihood of creating more of them. Thus, intelligent and pragmatic changes in US foreign policy are morally justified.

Without a doubt, US foreign policy is designed to serve the interests of the US military, US elites and US corporate interests. US foreign policy does not serve the immediate interests of the American citizenry (indeed, they are endangered by it).

Excellent point OSB.

However, the answer to your question is GWBush.

On the 10th of September, 2001, the western world proclaimed their solidarity. All the western nations accurately understood that the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center was against all of us. Indeed, Article 5 of NATO was invoked - an attack against one, is an attack against all.

But GWBush proclaimed that 9/11 was a US thing and claimed 100% 'ownership' of the event. And such it has been. USA threw away their allies a week after the event. Now, by the policy of GWBush, 9/11 is a purely American event purely against America.

Bush can have it.

Indeed, a classic example of how US foreign policy harms US citizens. Telling one's allies to figuratively 'fuck off' doesn't serve the interests of American citizens. It serves only the interest of US corporations and the US military.

And I think you are wrong there. In any event, we have to start somewhere

Kudos for indicating you think someone is "wrong", as opposed to some people on this forum who would simply have thrown childish, baseless charges of LYING around whenenver they disagree with something someone has said (or their own simplistic misunderstanding of what someone else has said). Maybe you can give them lessons.!

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"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane