Excellent point, partofme. You are obviously an intelligent person, and it is a pleasure debating with you.

Maybe it is, and it very well may be, naïve of me, but I believe that we should have the common sense to hold people who we construe as threats, and not to base the holding of people who we consider threats to our safety upon the word of a sovereign party with an obvious agenda in telling us who is and who isn't an aforementioned "threat". If this is not possible, then I concede to you the point that you made earlier. If a possible terrorist is being held because of the whims of a contracted independent party, without our prior knowledge or suspicions, then he should be treated in the manor that you propose, upholding the rights that we (ideally) treat our own citizens with.

On the other hand, I believe that upholding the personal rights of people who we believe, hopefully with good reason and/or proof, are possible threats to national security should not be our government's primary, secondary, or even tertiary focus or obligation. Maybe this is a naïve double standard that I hold, but it is my opinion, and here in America, I rely on the government to take every step possible in protecting my right to voice it.

__________________
"I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't think there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and parading around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face white and praying to a rock."
-Howard Stern

"I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it."
-George Carlin

Maybe I was unreasonably harsh, and for that I apologize. I simply find it hypocrtical to call a nation as a whole ignorant, when one is unable to correctly spell "missed" (mist(sic)).

My beef is this: I agree that Bush is ignorant. Many of our politicians are ignorant. Hell, go outside for ten minutes and it is fairly easy to see that some of our citizens are ignorant. But to categorize a nation as a whole as "ignorant" is ignorant as best.

Again, I apologize if I offended anyone, but when someone categorically defines a group of people with one or more unappealing descriptions, it makes me angry because the person (again I am trying not to insult anyone) is, as a result, proving their own ignorance.

__________________
"I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't think there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and parading around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face white and praying to a rock."
-Howard Stern

"I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it."
-George Carlin

Your country can not be compared with USA from any point of view. America had a war and liberated itself from England long time ago and managed to develop own cultural and national identity. Your convict Disneyland is still British colony without any national and cultural identity where your migrant and indigenes second class citizens ( modern slaves ) are strictly judged on racial basis. Your racist prime minister doesn’t know to do anything else except to suck Pome and G. W. Bush arses so much that even they don’t know how to get rid of him.

In other words you are nothing more, as president of Zimbabwe said, then
“genetically modified Pome criminals”
Mugabe

You're opinions are your own until you start talking about anihilation. That's a little close to home considering 19 guys tried that with four airplanes a little over five years ago. So you better put up or shut up. Come with the anihilation already so you and your big mouth can be anihilated.

Kind of funny for anybody in or from Cuba to talk about annihilating the U.S.A.

Didn't a certain travel and economic embargo all but squash your country (assuming) and its economics?

__________________
"I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't think there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and parading around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face white and praying to a rock."
-Howard Stern

"I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it."
-George Carlin

Calm down, take it easy and don’t worry this is just different opinion then presented in your corrupted media.
It will only help you to start thinking.
Anyway someone will first liberate you ( as you liberated Iraqis ) and then they will reeducate you.

We are not so cruel. Cuba will only liberate you and then reeducate you.

Liberate me from the oppressive dictatorship that currently controls America? Come on now! I have done my fair share of Bush bashing, but he is in no way oppressive or dictatorial on the level that has been exhibited in your country's history. I believe in our government's system of checks and balances, no matter how many stupid presidents we put into office.

Reeducate = Subject to political propaganda? No thanks, I'm happy with the propaganda I get from our Government.

__________________
"I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't think there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and parading around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face white and praying to a rock."
-Howard Stern

"I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it."
-George Carlin

Well, actually, I think Laca has a point, even if he didn't word it diplomatically. The US do have most of the world's top universities, but at the same time, the literacy rate in the US is much lower than, say, Cuba's, for instance. I don't understand how it is even possible, considering how many more ressources the US have than Cuba.

LOl - I certainly think Howard learnt from Ms Hanson - and the popularity of one nation was instrumental in shaping some of his policies.

you make a lot of assumptions about our ignorance in this country. are you familiar with the 'history wars?' or with the term 'black armband theory of history?'

If you were, you would be well aware that there are different voices among (white) historians about our history. You would also perhaps be aware that your generalisations re anglo australians are as ludicrous as any generalisations made about any other group - including Cubans.

Quite frankly, my experience of fundamentalist Muslims shows a greater capacity to understand that people are not uniform just because of nationality.

Your posts here tend to support the view held by many of those whose POV I usually refute on this forum that you are brainwashed, and that Castro is bad for the Cuban people.

actually - if you were to look at the earliest history - you would find that Captain Arthur Phillip had amicable relationships with the Aborigines in Sydney Cove, and was deeply saddened by the deaths of many from smallpox - a disease they had no resistance to.

I won't disagree that there were many massacres of Aboriginal people over time, but I also won't agree that they always tried to resist occupation.

John Batman 'bought' the land around melbourne for a few blankets, glass beads and knives. This was pretty disgusting (and he also 'bought' the land from the wrong people) but it doesn't indicate resistance.

here in the West Yagan's people did not initially resist - it only came later, when they began to realise that the invaders had a different understanding of law to the law of the land.

so how do you know about them?

having studied the history of race relations in this country, I am well aware of incidents that are exactly as you describe - and even worse. deliberate premeditated poisonings of whole tribes.

There is a lot of our history to be ashamed of, however there are also many people who have worked towards reconciliation. FYI - every time I go to a conference or major event it is standard for people to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land, and pay respects to the elders of the the community.

Are you aware of these practises?

well actually - its not QUITE like that. In fact its true (and I've postedf elsewhere on this forum) that it was not unusual for fine upstanding gentlemen to go out and shoot 'the natives' on a Sunday afternoon. But in general this 'hunting' was not sport, but for other reasons.

This doesn't justify it - but it shows you are ignorant of our history.


you mean like the Spanish ate their 'pack animal' native carriers in the Search for El Dorado? I haven't heard of that before, but I know among some tribes cannibalism was not unknown. If it was ever practised by whites it certainly would have been covered up - you'd be right about that. The only cases of white cannibalism in Australia I have heard of involved escapees from Port Arthur in Tasmania - and it was fellow convict escapees they ate.

can you provide some current examples?

please use accurate and reliable sources.

and in south Australia - although the reports of carbonised bodies are new to me. the shocking incidence of deaths as a result of the Monte Bellos and Woomera tests are well known, however.

yes. A friend of mine worked on the Aboriginal Deaths in custody programme. The prevention of suicides was a major concern. Not surprisingly, Aboriginal suicides and deaths due to misadventure are high in the overall population, as are incarceration rates. This is not unusual where people have been dispossessed of their culture and their land, and marginalisedby the society they live in.

To a large extent things are slowly improving. I believe that the recognition of prior ownership of the land, and the improved image of traditional culture has played a big part in counteracting this - but there is still a long way to go.

yes. and where is your evidence that the Police KILLED the boy?

I think there are serious points to be made in a case like this - however to say the police KILLED him is a bit far fetched. that the situation came about as it did is a major cause for concern, and was at the time discussed extensively. sure there were the responses you describe, but there were also other voices. After all - we live in a democratic society which does NOT stifle criticism.

well - here again ... do you know anything about geography? I agree that there are major issues with the provision of health services in remote areas, and I also have on this forum talked about 'institutionalised racism' in relation to aboriginal health care, however the provision of services to remote communities is not easy - and there are also many other issues to be considered. There are some in the Aboriginal community who also argue that elders need to take responsibility for their communities more. Its not just a one way thing.

an interesting perspective, and while overpaid senior public servants are an issue in health care generally - I don't think your criticism specifically WRT aboriginal health holds much water. Perhaps though you can show some reliable source for this assertion?

yes, its apalling. and you need to look into more information as to why that is.

I won't argue too much with this. I think recognition of native title is the best defence against exploitation of Aboriginal land.

do you have source for this? I seriously doubt it.

yes, we know about this.

so how come they can vote now if we still have these attitudes? do you know anything about the referendum? the percentage of people who voted in favour of the reforms?

source?

yes. and today you still demonise the Australia of today based on past events which reflect not Australian culture, but what was considered acceptable behaviour of the time. I have to ask you Iaca - do you speak only Spanish? or do you speak one of the native languages of your land?

My daughter's boyfriend speaks English, as well as knowing the language of both his mother's people and his father's people. He knows his father's people's culture - and he knows important sites of his mother's people. Could this be possible if we are, today, the people you seem to think we are?

can we have a definition of genocide please?

don't forget the Irish.

why do we have politicians of non Anglo saxon origin? why, for example, does the Premier of NSW have an Italia background?

Why was our minister of education born in Croatia?

Why do some of the top legal and accounting firms have people with Southern European names as partners? why are so many senior public servants of non European ancestry?

why are many of the wealthy people in my suburb Chinese, Lebanese, Iranian, or from a Southern European heritage?

Really Iaca - if you want to learn thats fine - but I'm done with arguing with you.

You repeatedly prove that the redneck Americans are right about Cuba. You are ignorant and brainwashed, and not worth defending.

based on what I have seen of the results of YOUR education - I would certainly reject that offer.

[quote=enigma2;830518]It is problematic whether it is Castro or the sanctions that have made things hard for the people of Cuba. It could be said that the collapse of the Soviet Union was disastrous for Cuba. .................................................. .....................


More about Aussie paradise

Al Australian media reported that 39 yo Ms. Cornellaa Rau ( Born Australian with German background ) an Australian citizen was kidnapped by Australian secret service and locked in Baxter detention center in Australian desert. She was well known as advocate for human rights and a green activities who often criticized prime minister John Howerd racist policy. During her stay in prison she was raped and tortured and as a result of this her mental state critically deteriorated.
The president of the South Australian Council for Civil Liberties, George Mancini, says Ms Rau's case highlights serious flaws in the system.
Mr Mancini says part of the problem has been the Federal Government's determination to keep the public in the dark about what happens inside Australia's detention centers.
"The secretive nature of these places leads to this very problem, and that's why this has happened to this lady, because everything is kept secret, no-one gets to know about her situation," he said.


Another brutal racist killing by Anglo-Saxon police in Australia
Up to 3000 members of the Aboriginal community in spontaneous uprising clashed with Anglo-Saxon police over the death in custody of 36-year-old local man Cameron Doomadgee who was, brutally bitten and killed by Anglo-Saxon police at Palm Island.
Police Commissioner Bob Atkinson was in Townsville today, meeting with community representatives to help restore public order to the island.
He criticized the Palm Island Community Council for not taking stronger leadership and explaining the full details of the coroner's report into Mr Doomadgee's death to the island's residents
A post-mortem examination revealed Mr Doomadgee had four broken ribs, a ruptured liver and a ruptured portal vein.
Mr Atkinson said autopsy results were inconsistent with police accounts of the event.
What is going on on Palm Island is a genuine reflection of how all Aboriginal people are feeling at this stage across Australia about barbaric Anglo-Saxon occupation.

I think the reason for this is the fact that those who are in power in USA are more concern for the interest of their corporations then for the interest of American people.

This is an excellent point, but not the point that was originally raised in the beginning of this thread. The number of Americans that are obese and lazy is without a doubt rising, some may say at an alarming rate. That isn't to say that there are still some working their asses off to succeed in this world. I stand by what I said earlier, and let me rephrase.

In any country that is to be examined (Cuba, USA, Canada, etc.) there are the lowlifes, and the people who have the drive to be successful. I admire America's opportunities for social mobility. When someone from humble beginnings exhibits the drive and intelligence needed to succeed, in this country more times than not they are given the means to help them do so. Throughout my childhood, my mother used and relied on food stamps, never showing the initiative to get off the poverty line and advance in this society. I witnessed this and strived in school, achieving high honor roll. Using my parent's mistakes and lack of ambition as motivation, I decided I was not going to end up in the same place as my mother. I decided that I, not to toot my own horn, but nevertheless, was going to take advantage of public schooling and the social mobility that America offers. I studied hard, and whether you agree with my opinions or not, I like to think that I am able to express myself in a civilized and intelligent manor. I apologize for kissing my own ass, but I believe everything aforementioned to be true.

Now the direct opposite is often, and unfairly, less prevalent. One of the imperfections that I see in America is our inability to abolish the flaws in our system that allow for the inheritance of power. The inheritance of wealth is in my opinion fine and rightful, but to promote someone to a position of power because of the success of their forefathers (*Cough* Bush *Cough* Michael Powell *Cough*), rather than for their own qualifications is wrong and unethical. This happens more often than it should, and is something that should be monitored and put to an end.

But I digress. The point of my ramblings is that in any country, or society for that matter, the vast spectrum of individuals present prohibits anybody from logically categorizing the country or society with a single description. To do so is to at best to admit one's own ignorance and descrimination, and at worse to promote hate and untruthfulness. Don't take my word for it, ask the people of the Jewish faith. This is why I take umbridge with the claim that Americans, as a whole, are unintelligent, fat, and ignorant. Examine any group of people, and you will find unintelligence, obesity, and ignorance. but in the same group you will find desire, drive, strength, and the will to succeed.

__________________
"I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't think there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and parading around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face white and praying to a rock."
-Howard Stern

"I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it."
-George Carlin