Well, these days there are numerous competing TV channels in the Scandinavian countries. If one of them would start to dub their foreign programmes, they would lose a huge part of their audience to the other channels. This would be the market force speaking.

I fail to see how I have proven your point. I fail to see how subtitling of foreign TV programmes would be a way of killing the native language. I am positive most people have it in them to be at least bilingual, talking the native Scandinavian tounge alongside English is not a way of killing the native language. On the contrary, many Swedes are well aware of what "Swenglish" words enter the Swedish language; many of these words are also dismissed by the people and disappear. (In Swedish, we have our own word for computer, not like German.)

Yes, ABBA sung in English, just like Roxette, Ace of Base, BWO, and other Swedish musicians on the international scene. This is, however, not different from German musicians like Alphaville, Modern Talking, Enigma; or French like Daft Punk.

I have no reason to believe August Strindberg will ever be read in English in Swedish schools. There are too many great authors with English as their native language for this to be necessary.

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President Josiah Bartlet: Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
Leo McGarry: Maybe they don't and they can't add.

Come on ... Of course "non-dubbing" alone would not kill a language ... But several separate small decisions made by speakers who give up the language voluntarily will :
- No translation in mother tongue of TV shows, books
- International Advertising Campaigns in one language
- Giving up of singing in mother tongue
- Imposing an official administrative language
and so on and so on ...

Separately, each one of these decisions, is not determinant and is always based on a solid rationale. But these decisions add up until the original language disappears because it has become ... useless.

Whether you like it or not, this is the way languages die and this phenomenon has been studied and evaluated by linguists for a long time. Languages have always died and been reborn, this is not the issue here. The issue is that this phenomenon has accelerated in the 20th-21st century, with mass media, internet, globalization ...

See here the UNESCO portal:
http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-U...CTION=201.html

And an article, in French, but since you do not like translations
http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_04/fr/doss01.htm

This article from the University of Chicago
http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0012/features/mufwene.html
" A language is transmitted and maintained in a community through continuous use. Languages die when their speakers give them up. ... Speakers do not deliberately refuse to use their languages but are often compelled to speak other languages that offer practical or material advantages: being integrated in a mainstream society, finding a good job, and getting opportunities for socioeconomic ascension. Speakers could, of course, also keep their ancestral languages, but often wind up speaking only the more advantageous language-especially if they move out of their native communities. "

In Germany and in France too there are groups who sing in English only. However, these languages have so many speakers worldwide, even German, that they do not belong to the groups threathened at all. However, this can not be said of all languages in Europe.

I like foreign languages, they are an extraordinary opening to the world. This is the reason why I will always oppose any measure which may weaken them.

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______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

So what. Many EU countries and especially America already have restrictions on what can be broadcast (bad words, offending sex scenes and hard violence etc.)
It might not encourage adults to learn english, but it will encourage the kids and thats good enough. Same goes for the millions of immigrants in the U.S.

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It all comes down to this on election day: Are you a racist, or do you look down on spastics?

So what? It doesn't make it right.

Its up to parents to decide what they want their kids to learn. The state has little business in this area. Our children get dumber and dumber the more we rely on governments to give direction on how to raise them. This is true for most nations, but is especially evident in the U.S, and hopefully other nations will learn from our experiences.

Let me just say that the first time you ever hear Dirty Harry speaking German... you´re gonna have to reassess that opinion

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There's no theory of evolution, only a list of creatures Chuck Norris allows to live...

Sucre I think you should consider something.
I know quite some people that prefer non dubbed movies. Thats not the easiest way, because the easiest for the customer would be to hear the dubbed version. But the point is that often much of the original intent gets lost in translation. (hehe, good film btw ). Out of many reasons, often because simply some subtile joke just works in the original meaning and can't be properly translated without leaving the tight frame of dubbing. Moreover with the different language, also the impression of the movie changes significantly.

But the main point you seem not to see is that, not dubbing is in reallity the opposite of loosing variety of languages. At least if have more than a one dimensional movie taste. Or do you think the US is the only country that produces movies? Its simply a different experience to hear the fabulous life of Amelie in French (even if you hardly understand it) than in German. It simply fits better into the Parisian atmosphere.

To prefer undubbed movies does not mean prefering language monoculture.

Well it does not mean that automatically. Nevertheless you should not forget that 98% of all non-dubbed movies in Scandinavia are English speaking movies. All other European languages have an immense disadvantage to English there. Or can you imagine that a Finnish TV station broadcasts a considerable amount of French movies in the original version. Who would watch that?

Me, as well as Sucre, has got some problems with the non-dubbing of languages for that reason. Although those restrictions would have consequences for all movies (from the US, from France, Italy etc.) it would only benefit the English speaking movies. Just think: in how many languages can the average European watch a movie and understand it? At best one, that's a reality.

The variety of languages in Europe is very important. Those small decisions sum up to the importance of English as lingua franca. Another horrible vision is the next step: English as the only official language of the EU. Why then study other languages than English?

There are a lot examples in history how these were the first steps that led to the extinction of languages and entire cultures. Let me just take one:

in mideval times, occitan was the language of the troubadors, a romanic language with an entire culture in the south of France. After the king of France controlled the south he imposed his language in the administration. Step by step the authors followed to write in French to get a bigger audience. After schools were introduced the only language was French with the result that meanwhile this old proud language is basically dead.

Of course this was a process of a couple of hundred years. But think about it: if English is the language of the high administration, and we already learn English in school as our native language German (in Austria), and if we are surrounded by English as soon as we turn on the TV, wouldn't it be logic just to speak English? It would, but our "national identity" prevents us from doing so, nevertheless this might not be a reason anymore in a couple of decades.

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Oh ... But I personally love undubbed movies ... I always check on undubbed versions when going to the movie theatre, I always chose the original language on DVDs. As you say they much better convey the atmosphere of the country where they come from, all these jokes that cannot be translated etc.

However, I am probably in the minority because fact is that, even in "Weltstadt Berlin" , most of the films are dubbed and this is a sure sign of their success. Recently, I had to accept to watch a French film in German, kind of strange especially when you like the main actress so much (Charlotte Gainsbourg).

On the other hand, there is a movie I would really recommend you : Das Leben der anderen, a German film, at the moment only available to be seen in German - but since it won several prizes with the possibility to get dubbed ... and therefore to reach to the international markets. (But an undubbed German version shouldn't be a problem for an Austrian, or maybe not ... )

To summarize I think that :
(1) Market forces decide on movie adaptation and for the time being national languages in Europe are so strong and the (good) knowledge of foreign languages including English not that widespread that original versions are prefered by the public at large ;
(2) Sweden, for that matter Scandinavia, may be an exception but this is not because Swedes are so much more "open" to foreign languages, rather because English has become the de-facto second mother language in this country so that people have no problem seeing undubbed movies, in fact they even prefere undubbed movies ... (like I do - but I am fluent in several foreign languages)

Do you understand my point ?

(3) Besides, I don't think that undubbed movies would forward a better knowledge of foreign languages - unless you already master this language. That brings us back to my point (2).

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______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

100% agree and we can only insist on the impact one by one of these insignificant "small decisions".

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______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

I have no problem with this, agreed.

Even though I was thinking more about the DVD versions. I know many people that want to have the original tone track on the DVD if they buy it.

I tend to disagree slightly. Not that I think that you could learn a language by watching movies, but it definitely improves your passive language skills, if you have allready the school knowledge of English, like I have.

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When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

Well said, however, as English is the international business language it may be considered to be just another lesson.

On the other hand, has anyone on here ever watched a foreign film which has been dubbed into English? Usually done by out-of-work US actors, not very good actors at that. The way they pronounce their words is excruciating! Regional accents and all. I'm not criticising for the sake of criticising, but to give an example hearing the Roman Emporer denounce the invading hordes in a broad New York accent is something to be heard before believing! LOL

Subtitles forever!!! As one poster said, I want to watch something mindless or unchallenging, can't remember which. OK, do so, but don't ask me too!

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Lucky is he (sic) who has been able to understand the causes of things
Virgil

Exactly, and I am a living proof of that. Id say 80 if not 90% of my english comes directly from TV.

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It all comes down to this on election day: Are you a racist, or do you look down on spastics?

Who cares...

?

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In Scandinavia, people would rather see it if it had Danish, Norwegian, or Swedish subtitles than if it was dubbed to these languages. We feel that a dubbed film is a children's film.

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President Josiah Bartlet: Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
Leo McGarry: Maybe they don't and they can't add.

This has got nothing to do with the English language as such, but the dominance of the American film industry.

When I was younger, I went to Germany for three weeks one summer to learn the language better. The trouble was that when I went to the cinema, almost all movies were American movies dubbed into German. Sure, I could improve my German by watching these movies, but it did nothing to improve my knowledge of Germany and German customs.

Some French films have been successful in Sweden, with subtitles. In my mind these are too few and far between, and I would like to see more German, Italian and other European films on the Swedish market. The trouble is not the English language, but the strong position of Hollywood.

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President Josiah Bartlet: Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
Leo McGarry: Maybe they don't and they can't add.