A bit impatient Oleg? Your page long post does need a certain time to respond to. Hopefully I am allowed to do something else than posting on USPO all day too.

If you say that. But you hardly will deny that the state considerably strengthened its control over this sector. And Russia has control over many companies and infrastructures that are essential. If the control of the gas and oil export would be proportional to the number 1/3, then how can it be that rising prices hit "problematic" neighbors but not "good" neighbors like Belarus? Its really not important how the Russian state achieves it to blackmail them with the prizes, fact is he does. If the intent would be honest, the deductions would not be threatened to abolish over night directly in front of the next hard winter. It would be done in a way that the other state could adopt to the new situation in time. Unless the intent is to bring it into turmoil, than this overnight action makes sense.

Alone regarding Georgia there have been several "accidents" that led to an unstable deliver of resources. Of course you can tell me now the official Russian version that the Russian engineers are simply unable (even though just on the infrastructure towards Georgia surprisingly).

Apart from those incidents there have been the official actions with raising prices more than just significantly. (Even if you cancel deductions the tone and the condidtions make the music.)
Thats nonsense. Show me a single document of the EU or single statement where an official did say that the Ukraine can join the EU.
Its easier than that. The Ukraine voted, the election was fraued, it voted again after a long public unrest and suddenly the election came to a quite different outcome. And its unimportant if you tell me how the imperialist west payed for someone or not, the latter election didn't bring the Russian friendly to power. The consequence? As direct answer you through the Ukraine into turmoil by cancelling the deductions. And dont tell me you dont know what consequences it has if a country overnight suddenly has to pay the double sum in front of an especially hard winter. The message to the Ukraine people was clear: You voted for the wrong candidate, we told you, now you pay for it.

Rebelling might be not the ideal word, neighboring countries that press on their sovereignty might be a better term.

The point is, they are now allready for quite a time not in the Soviet Union anymore. Why did you wait so long to reduce or cancel the deductioins, just to do it so sudden with not much time to adopt? Because the people voted wrong in the elections?

Thats hillarious. Do you have an idea about economics? There are goods that are more dispensable and others that are less. Cars are something that can be very easily exchanged by other brands. If you really seriously chose that example it does not show much understanding. Oil transfer heavily rellies on pipelines, otherwise there would hardly be so fierce quarrels about them from time to time, if they would be so strategically unimportant as your "car-comaprission" tries to claim. To change the source of oil in large dimensions a country needs quite some time. You need to change your whole infrastructure. Russia knows that its not as easy as you want to make it look like. Moreover is the market not able to provide fuel out of nothing, If Russia restrains delivery the lacking amount of oil has to come from anothe source, that costs at least extra if it is possible at short time apropriately at all.
I did not say, that you have shut all doors. But the climate for European companies in Russia has been allready far better. Today if you dont fit into the political agenda, you have faster some problems with the authority than you can look. While I would really burn to see those problems ever occur with states controlled companies or from friendly oligarchs.

Apart from that, I am sorry, but I am no expert on Russian markets. I just know that many countries are worried about the selective application of law in the business sector. Or tell me, was Yukos the only case of unlawful actions of an oligarch in Russia that accured during the Jelzin era? And where are the other similar cases then?

This is unbearable. I demand an excuse for this grieve totally out of proportion accusation. Its not for the attack on us but this nearly borders on holocaust denial. I dont think you are such an uneducated person that you do not exactly know what you are saying here.

Either you excuse and use an appropiate term, or you show me an in detail proof that Europe runs an extermination camp for the extinction of african people. Otherwise I consider this discussion to be ended.


WRT Hungaria. I dont know which students you are talking about. If you mean the violent demonstrators that among others devasted the TV station and on other days caused chaos on the streets, I would not want to know how the Russian police would have acted. But you are right, it was unnecesarely brutal. If I am not wrong there are already law suits running. In case they dont succeed even though a human rights violation took place there is still the European court for Human Rights.

Do you want a honest answer? I was not sure and perhaps that was the most interesting answer you gave on my post yet. I have allready heard often enough that human rights in general are an invention to surpress the rest of the world. That they are not even principally a good thing, just western imperialism.

Thats a nonsensical claim. Paedophils have no chance to get accepted. Its hillarious Russian propaganda at best, basing on not much than a few rumors and out of context news. Transperacy international does not list Russia as to high for the freedom it grants its citizens and journalists have a rather dangerous life, dont you agree?
But yet you still have a democracy. Its non of my business but Russians have it in their hand if they want democracy or something else. And to tell you the difference, in a democracy there exists a opposition that at least has a chance to get to power eventually. An opposition that has not to fear about punishment and victimisation. I really dont know enough about your political situation in detail, but if you say you have both, than its fine for you.

I think its rather unlikely that the Ukraine will join the Nato. There is no real benefit except even more troubles with Russia. And Belarus, come on, before they will join the Nato, they are allready reunited with Russia again.

WRT EU admission. Thats simply an invention of your side. There is no option to join for both countries.

Who says that? You?

That could be directly related with the destruction, murders and rapes the Serbs committed before. I oppose both. And that the Kosovo mission was not too succesfull is also no secret. But at least we work to solve that problem in a way that both parties can live with it without waging war again.

I dont see this attempt with the regions you have your soldiers in.

Come on, you are talking like if Russia never would have been an empire. Ask the central Asiens how much they loved being an Soviet region. Apart from that, I allready mentioned that I as also the vast majority of Europeans strictly opposed that Iraq war.

Why should we pay for Georigia? Oh, wait, yes sure, thats another country we are eager to join our EU...

And again, its not the fact that you want to abolish the deductions, but in the way and at the time you suddenly dictate it to them.

__________________
Vienna Central-Cementery:
"Half the size of Zürich, but twice the fun"

I think no, maybe they reduce the period of time to get visa to go to another part of Russia through it's countries at the most.

I'm sorry about my awful English. I mean the criticism from the west is very general and is not concrete. Many people perceive it not as healthy criticism, but as humiliation. In many respects it is so because the west don't understand what to tell and to do, I think.

Our government say: 'look, the West criticize us because we don't want to give them our oil and gas'.
I don't agree with it. But I want to note, that if we have no oil and gas, we would have been not interesting to the West. In 90th years there were as many human right violations in Russia, but the West was deaf to it because our oilfields were open to the West.

We (in Russia) can recognize moods in the west by reading its newspapers. We have two internet sites with translated fresh articles about relationships with Russia from all basic EU, American and some others newspapers (about 15-20 articles per day). Frequently I read there, that the Russia isn't a worth country and it would be better to isolate it from the west. They divide all to black and white instead of analyse and draw logical conclusions. Moreover this leaves an impression, that these journalists has not been in Russia at all. They make theirs materials using articles from another newspapers. Thus authors try to write the most general and abstract.


This operation had very significant influence in consciousness the most people in Russia. Almost all my relatives and friends were disapointed in the West and NATO especially and changed their opinion about. I know in England didn't display on TV destroyed maternity hospital in Belgrad and womens lieing on the flow. Althow I know about more terrible events in our country, I was horrified that time. (At that time our TV was free yet...)


Me too. I hope no war in Balkans, but the situation is very difficult and we can expect anything.

I think we must not be too critical with Putin. If you look at he history of Russia and the Soviet Union, it is pretty remarkable what has been achieved since the End of the Cold War. It is pretty obvious that Russia (and the other ex-Soviet republics) still has great problems to solve on the way to become a modern Democracy and a stable market-economy. But that can not be done over night.

Agreed Mal but I think most of the criticism of Putin is that he is going backward when it comes to democracy, not forwards anymore.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

Yes. But I just wanted to say that it is not so easy for Putin, given the problems his country is facing. We just can't expect that democracy as we know it will work in Russia just as smoothly as we are used to. That takes a lot of time. The culture, the mentality, the economic and social structures, the public administration and authorities ... all have to catch up with those radical changes. Political stability and corruption are probably the biggest concerns for the Russian government. They will have to make some concessions ... whether we like it or not.

Like the Kremlin appointing the provincial, or whatever they call their regions, leaders instead of a vote? Like what they did to get the oil company firmly back under Kremlin control.

I understand that there may be some laws that we would find onerous to help them curtail the criminals and even some controls on television, but it seems to be an accross the board assalt on democratic principles. It harkens more to the Chinese telling us that they have democracy as well, just a chinese version.

__________________

The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

You've just found the time to answer to the next poster after me, in the tone as if you haven't seen my post at all. Last time when we met in forum (we discussed the Sakhalin oil projects and Dutch Shell problems) you left my questions unanswered. No problem, you might have had more important things to do - I merely wanted to be sure this time that my post wasn't dismissed. Thanks for answering.
It's simple. Belarus is de-facto economically integrated part of Russia, her intention is further integration with Russia. That 1/3 of the oil and gas controlled by our government are enough to sustain special prices inside of Russia and her economical allies' zone. If there were zero percent of control - then no lower prices than the world prices would have been available anywhere - in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus or Georgia. The private masters would have set the European prices overnight. Ukraine and Georgia declared that they turn their backs on the project of Common Economocal Space with Russia in favour of European economical zone and future EU membership. They declared themselves to become our economical competitors henceforth. Belarus didn't. The question why our government still subsidize the Belarus is the issue of Russian taxpayers and Russian government. The opinions are different.
This is the most disgustful part of hypocrisy and direct lies about this issue in the West. 6 months before winter crisis (in warm summer) the Ukrainian government was informed and invited to discuss next annual treaty for the deliveries. By that time the prices for RUSSIAN gas INSIDE OF RUSSIA were already HIGHER than in UKRAINE. The Ukrainian government was informed about increasing of future price due to the world trend and new status of competitor. All six months the Ukrainian government played the foul game and artifically avoided the meeting to make the document of agreement. They were directly recommended from Washigton to suspend the matter unsettled till the last day and then try to insist on the former price which "bad Russians" have risen "suddenly" "in cold winter". The US controlled world media shot the wave of dramatic lies simultaneously, so that the majority of readers didn't even understand that Russia half a year demanded the level of price twice as little to the normal world price, which is applied for neighbouring Romania for instance or other Europe. Everybody thought that stalinist Putin set the fantastic "special" injust dragon-price over all possible stock-market norms overnight.
To speak it softly, you've said the untruth. Very sad to see you doing this. There was ONE accident, when the pipeline to Georgia was blasted one night in the very difficult region in the mountains on the territory of Russia.The official Russian version says the Russian engineers succeeded to repair the destroyed segment in only 3 days working round o'clock in the frost among the bolders and unpassable cliffs. The stopped stream of fuel was immediatly overdirected to Georgia through the spare line on the territory of Azerbaijan so that Georgia got every cubic meter in time. Of course all this is Russian propaganda, and clever guys like you know definitely that true version is that of The Washington Post, where Russian imperialistic beasts have blown their pipeline to threaten and freeze the young democracy of Georgia.

You mean the actions of Russia were too dangerous for Ukrainian economy and took place namely because of that ground? Look, when Russia in 90-s was unable to pay for her foreign debt, she was forced to get the new credits in the West, and the West gave them with pleasure on the incredible percent rates. This credits were murderous for our economy, they increased our debt yoke and pushed us towards the default and bancruptsy. Why didn't West speak about mercy and why didn't West say that those payments for existig debt are too significant and heavy for Russia for the time being, that Russia is not ready to pay, that you should give her a time and not demand so much, that those payments must not be so great lest the Russian economy went into turmoil and chaos? Why once the West do it - it is economical rationality and realism and when we do it - it is blackmail?
Elaborate this about stressed souvereignity. Take for instance Georgia, where all the government literally receive salary from G. Soros (which is equal CIA) fund. RUSSIA presses on their SOUVEREIGNITY? The wife of Ukrainian president is former worker of CIA structures specializing in the Cold War time on the anti-Soviet activities, President Uschenko openly meets and councils with the director of CIA in Crimea - RUSSIA presses on the Ukrainian SOUVEREIGNITY? What you understand as souvereignity, man?
Who says we stop deliveries, all the more rapidly and sudden as you describe? All the long-term contracts are signed and will be fulfilled accuratly. Moreover, there is no doubt the new contracts will be signed and you've been given all garantees. All what we do - we do warn you openly and frankly long in advance that we will have at least the second big consumer, comparable with EU, and that EU can not dictate us to increase the volume of deliveries over that quantity that we need to sell. We ready to increase deliveries but not ready to follow and fully compensate your growing demand. That is why you have enough time (years) to build the LNG terminals, build the pipelines, get new partners, technologies, build the atomic plants - whatever, to care about upcoming situation. We don't want to be the ground for the economy collapse in EU, that's why here is our message - have your time, don't trouble but pay attantion and take measures right now, so that you escape the deficit of energy in 10 years.

The political agenda of Russia is the growth of wealth and security for Russia and her people, I think you are hardly surprised. Of course, every company seeking the benefits of participation in our economy boom must be loyal to this agenda, I wonder what else do you expect? If the economical activity of some foreign company besides the financial profit will have some political goals, contradicting to those I've noted - then this company will be expelled. Will you please name me the European brands, that was kicked out for this reason?
No cases. The Yukos case was the great threat to our National security, but following that line would be the total renationalization with ever more dangerous consequences, including return to chaos of 90-s.
No excuse. Just take into a habit to face the unpleasant truth, instead of shattering mirror and ubrupting the talk. The strange words like "extermination", "extinction" and the topic of Holocaust denial you invented yourself right here; these are not words of mine. Chill up, fellow, why have you gotten so nervous suddenly?) The camps with barbed wire were televised in the EuroNews, they are located on the isles in the Mideterranian sea, and you said right - they are for Africans. These camps are for concentration of illegal immigrants. BTW, don't use the argument of Holocaust denial against Russians - it's useless and will not act as you accustomed to in Europe or America - as trustworthy stamping instrument to show your opponent as pariah and slip from the dispute. Our grandfathers opened the gates of Auschwitz-Birkenau, and you'd better not lift up this topic. The ribbon bullets, heavily traumatizing and dangerous weapon, can not be used by Russian police in principle, especially after the beloved democrat of the West B.Yeltsin has resigned. It's impossible in normal situation of stable State, when government and president follow the constitution. Where did you hear that nonsense?

The same reaction was once to the gays, and previous generation of Europeans denied the possibility of gay-parades as fierce as now you do. So what?..
Oh, if you take the lists of the Freedom Hause, you find Russia among the last items amidst the worst countries in the Universe. I don't agree.
Opposition can not consist of persons with double citizenship, people with the personal bank accounts abroad, representatives of the US or any other foreign power interests, people sponsored and funded by foreign funds and governments. Besides that opposition must represent the considerable part of national business. Everything ok, thanks.
Washigton and the government of the Ukraine think another. So if they won't join - this will be despite their plans. What is remarkable - not as the will of prevailing majority of Ukrainians, who democratically oppose this idea, but only because of possible "problems with Russia".
That is not so important. No matter if Ukraine will not get into the EU. The main thing - Ukrainians must not think so and Ukraine must break as many ties with Russia as possible.
I say - despite you oppose it, in your peacekeeping regions that ethnical party that West supports goes on to kill and discriminate another, because possibly that KFOR think as you do - that other party deserves to be killed and expelled. In our peacekeeping regions we don't think anybody has right for murder, rape or robberies out of any reason, the revenge too. Our planes didn't bomb the cities of Georgia to prevent cleanses against Abkhasians and Osetians.
C'mon, ask them, those central Asiens. The better chance to ask - millions of gastarbeiters in Moscow or those standing in the queues to gain the RF citizenship after the experience of not being the Soviet region. Ok, I see you are not ready to pay for country which is not the part of EU and which you don't plan to take into EU. Now you must explain me why we must be ready to pay for Georgia. C'mon, explain me that. If you can not explain and don't want to pay for them than you must offer to Georgia the financial credits and stop this BS rhetoric about Russian blackmail.

There seems to be a language issue.
I have looked up the meaning of the word "concentration camp" in english. I reckognize that its a very ambivalent term, so holocaust denial is a too strong word as you said this in english. If you would have said it in German I still would firmly stand to my comment.

Still I can not accept the way you make accusations like these, they are unholdable and I might quote this part of what Wikipedia has to say on it:

Dont say your usage of the term concenration camp was used while not knowing that double meaning.


And apart from this the term Concentration camp hardly meets its needed requirements. People are there for a limited time, until they are brought back to the countries they come from or are located to other places where they can wait for a fair asylum case.

If any, and I repeat any human rights violations should take place in those camps you call concentration camps, anyone can go to the courts. If being rejected by the member state, you can go up till the European Court of Human Rights. If you have any proof for violations personally, don't waste time arguing with me, get in contact with a lawyer and help getting such case initiated. But you might come too late anyway, unlike Russia we do not throw out NGO's out of our countries under the pretense of being foreign financed hostile organisations. And really believe me or not, our states are not in love with what those organisations do, as they are often a (essential and good) pain in the ass.

__________________
Vienna Central-Cementery:
"Half the size of Zürich, but twice the fun"

Strange to see as you or some other forum members use the Wikipedia as absolute infallible source to cite, setting all dots over "i". The concentration camps were invented long before Nazis, namely by Brits in their war with Boers in South Africa, these camps existed in the WWI either. The goal of any concentration camp is forcible isolation of great amounts of people in emergency situations when the law or even martial courts simply are not able to carry on the hearings of every single case for the time reason. The concentration camps are direct consequences of wars unseen in history of old, comprehanding millions or even tens of millions people. The termination of prisoners is not necessary feature of the concentration camp. For instance Guantanamo seems to offer enough bearable conditions, but comply to the subject of CC cause all prisoners are isolated without concrete charge or defined term. Whatever be it, the main human right - for freedom if not charged in crime - is violated, as well as in case of European camps for Africans. The reason for existence of those camps is quite understandable - as answer to the threat to Natonal Security of EU or the USA. The human rights of prisoners are being neglected, cause the prisoners have obvious and doubtless potential to hurt the National Security and society, their human rights (to move in direction of European shores) contradict to the interests of the European community, though don't undergo the definition of direct breaking the criminal law.
This is the thing that you in the West can not confess - the however long and detailed list of laws never can describe, prevent, regulate or punish all the possible dangers or the real world as well as the human rights of one person finish there where they hurt or threaten the human rights of the other.
The foreign financed NGOs are always loud if there are some little chances to perform the case of Khodorkovsky or of any representative of foreign interests as the violation of human rights in barbarical Russia, but not a single bastard in these NGOs have ever moved his ass in real cases of injustice. All the Russia went into the streets as the obviously unguilty car-driver, who's car was hit by the car of the Governor of one Russian province (and Governor has died in the accident), was sentenced to a few years term. The government of Russia was forced to intrude and abolish the desicion of local court. All the country spoke about the issue and appealed for justice, and everybody celebrated when the man was freed. And only western NGOs in Russia were silent and ignorant - he was an ordinary Russian, not vivid pro-western democrat, Jew or owner of oil-company.
All western-funded NGOs are fully discredited in Russia and some are simply hated, therefore all the financial grants still being pumped in them is only waste of money. Sad, that small quantity of really useful NGOs which were not concerned with political attack against our State are weakened together.

You know that reminds me somehow to the right extreme FPÖ members wearing just recently blue cornflowers in the Parliament. Probably you know not its meaning, but they argumented exactly along your line, just with cornflowers.

You did not with a single word talked about the fact that if there are human rights violations you can go to court, and our NGO's are a pain in the ass when they see a chance to get something to court, even the more if one could use the word concentration camp.

You ignore btw also the fact that those camps you are refering to have a very high turnover on refugees, people are not there to stay for a long time. They are there because if you dont have an eye on them, they are gone, and the asylum cases take a few months and then flight back also has to be organized. I agree with you btw that the circumstances there have an urgent need to be improved. Countries have to invest more that medical support in the camps gets better and the overall level too. But wouldnt a concentration camp need to deserve this name inmates are expecting to be there for a real long time?

Thats hillarious. I ask you what can a NGO do apart from being loud? If people oppose it then it can do nothing also no harm. The capital of NGO's is information and support by people. If they dont have any support the last they can do is spread information. Are you afraid of wrong information?

The other point is, that those "western fund