US shot down Iranian passenger liner in 1988 - Page 2 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

EAL · #16 (**permalink**) 01-13-2008

I blame Iranian foreign policy.

SomeMarine · #17 (**permalink**) 01-13-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

1) Mat and Iamwhatitseem, I read the entire article. Had you spent the time to read my posts you'll notice that I'm not trying to figure out how this happened.

2) Why are you posting the reasons behind, and circumstances leading up to this accident while ignoring the goal of the thread?

1) Well, there ya go, purposefull ignorance.

2) Because we know the goal of the thread is America bashing, trying to tie the events of the past few days into an event 20 years ago, making the connection we have a history of beating up on the Iranians for no reason. Am I close?

Steve · #18 (**permalink**) 01-13-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

You don't award medals to people who mistakenly shoot down commercial jets.

What is going on here?

What's going on?

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, that's what's going on.

I defy you to find anything that says they were given medals for shooting down a civilian airliner.

You need to educate yourself on the process of awarding medals in the US Armed Forces before you start spewing bullshit like you are.

Medals are most often given out at or near the conclusion of a deployment. Capt. Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit during that cruise. I can guarantee you that the Airbus incident had nothing to do with the awarding of that medal.

That medal cannot be approved in-theatre, and requires Congressional approval (it used to require Presidential approval). Simply put, a medal awarded on a particular day (in this case, July 3, 1988) could not possibly be for anything occurring on that same day. The review and approval process precludes it.

I know a few of the guys who were on the VINCENNES when this happened, and none of them were awarded medals...

Steve · #19 (**permalink**) 01-13-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

Why are you posting the reasons behind, and circumstances leading up to this accident while ignoring the goal of the thread?

Danny, the "goal" of almost all of your threads regarding America is to bash America. That's a stupid fucking goal to have, yet you seem to have it so often.

And, as has been mentioned already, you don't seem to be too fuckin' broken-up over Russia shooting down a Korean airliner.

Or haven't you heard about that one, either?

solletica · #20 (**permalink**) 01-14-2008

The incident was an accident, unlike the several dozens of other terrorist attacks by (or sponsored by) the US in which innocent civilians were killed.

solletica · #21 (**permalink**) 01-14-2008

In spite of the accidental nature of the incident, there is ample evidence that the crew of the ship and leadership at the time were a bunch of irresponsible warmongering fuckups (i. e. like the current Pres), and that Iran was unlikely to have provoked the US.

Quote:

An analysis of the events by the International Strategic Studies Association described the deployment of an Aegis cruiser in the zone as irresponsible and felt that the expense of the ship had played a major part in the setting of a low threshold for opening fire.[16] The Vincennes had been nicknamed 'Robocruiser' by crew members and other US Navy ships, both in reference to its AEGIS system, and to the supposed aggressive tendencies of its captain.[2]

On November 6, 2003 the International Court of Justice ruled that "the actions of the United States of America against Iranian oil platforms on 19 October 1987 and 18 April 1988 cannot be justified as measures necessary to protect the essential security interests of the United States of America."[17] However, the case relating to the Airbus downing, "the Aerial Incident of 3 July 1988, (Islamic Republic of Iran v. United States of America)", was dropped 22 February 1996 following settlement and reparations by the United States.[18]

Three years after the incident, Admiral William J. Crowe admitted on American television show Nightline that the Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters when it launched the missiles.[19] This contradicted earlier Navy statements.

According to Commander David R Carlson of the USS Sides, the Vincennes was not under attack by Iranian forces and "the conduct of the Iranian military forces in the month preceding the incident was pointedly non-threatening." [20]

Captain David Carlson, commander of the USS Sides, the warship stationed near to the Vincennes at the time of the incident, is reported (Fisk, 2005) to have said that the destruction of the aircraft "marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers' aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago." His comment referred to incidents on June 2, when Rogers had sailed the Vincennes too close to an Iranian frigate undertaking a lawful search of a bulk carrier, launched a helicopter within 2-3 miles (3.2-4.8 km) of an Iranian small craft despite rules of engagement requiring a four-mile (6.4 km) separation, and opened fire on a number of small Iranian military boats. Of those incidents, Carlson commented, "Why do you want an Aegis cruiser out there shooting up boats? It wasn't a smart thing to do." At the time of Rogers' announcement to higher command that he was going to shoot down the plane, Carlson is reported (Fisk, 2005) to have been thunderstruck: "I said to folks around me, 'Why, what the hell is he doing?' I went through the drill again. F-14. He’s climbing. By now this damn thing is at 7,000 feet." However, Carlson thought the Vincennes might have more information, and was unaware that Rogers had been wrongly informed that the plane was diving.

According to the BBC documentary of 2002, Carlson identified IR655 as a civilian craft based on its radar signature, its 'squawk' (IFF) code, and the fact that it was ascending at low speed — an attacking military aircraft would be descending towards the Vincennes at high speed. At first Carlson thought that the 'Iranian Tomcat' identified by the Vincennes must be some other aircraft, as it was difficult for him to believe that the Vincennes crew could mistake a civilian airliner for a Tomcat. The Vincennes’ warnings were on a military radio channel, addressed to 'Iranian Tomcat'. When Carlson concluded that the Vincennes was referring to IR655 in its warning to turn away or receive fire, he urgently warned IR655 on a civilian radio frequency that it was in danger, having been mistaken for a military aircraft, and should turn away. IR655 immediately complied and changed course onto a trajectory away from the Vincennes. The Vincennes fired regardless. Carlson expressed the view that the incident was a mistake brought about by an overly-aggressive approach by the captain of the Vincennes.

Craig, Morales & Oliver, in a slide presentation published in M.I.T.'s Spring 2004 Aeronautics & Astronautics, as the "USS Vincennes Incident," commented that Captain Rogers had "an undeniable and unequivocal tendency towards what I call 'picking a fight.'" On his own initiative, Rogers moved the Vincennes 50 miles (80 km) northeast to join the USS Montgomery. An angry Captain McKenna ordered Rogers back to Abu Musa, but the Vincennes helicopter pilot, Lt Mark Collier, followed the Iranian speedboats as they retreated north, eventually taking some fire:

"…the Vincennes jumps back into the fray. Heading towards the majority of the speedboats, he is unable to get a clear target. Also, the speedboats are now just slowly milling about in their own territorial waters. Despite clear information to the contrary, Rogers informs command that the gunboats are gathering speed and showing hostile intent and gains approval to fire upon them at 0939. Finally, in another fateful decision, he crosses the 12-mile (19 km) limit off the coast and enters illegally into Iranian waters."[21]

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (includes URL citations for each claim)

solletica · #22 (**permalink**) 01-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

What's going on?

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, that's what's going on.

I defy you to find anything that says they were given medals for shooting down a civilian airliner.

You need to educate yourself on the process of awarding medals in the US Armed Forces before you start spewing bullshit like you are.

Medals are most often given out at or near the conclusion of a deployment. Capt. Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit during that cruise. I can guarantee you that the Airbus incident had nothing to do with the awarding of that medal.

And it should have, since the evidence to date indicates the incident was largely due to his trigger-happiness, and that this was a recurrent habit for him.

In a real Navy, he would've been demoted to Ensign, and fired. He wasn't because GB Sr., like his son, doesn't have any balls.

Steve · #23 (**permalink**) 01-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by solletica

And it should have, since the evidence to date indicates the incident was largely due to his trigger-happiness, and that this was a recurrent habit for him.

Really?

What other incident resulted in him downing a commercial airliner?

Quote:

In a real Navy, he would've been demoted to Ensign, and fired. He wasn't because GB Sr., like his son, doesn't have any balls.

Of course, seeing as George I wasn't President at the time, you've made no point.

Oh, and you clearly don't know the first fucking thing abot the "real Navy". That much is evident by what you think the "real Navy" would do...

solletica · #24 (**permalink**) 01-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by solletica

And it should have, since the evidence to date indicates the incident was largely due to his trigger-happiness, and that this was a recurrent habit for him.

Really?

What other incident resulted in him downing a commercial airliner?

Read what I wrote (above): I said his trigger-happiness was a recurrent habit, not him downing commercial airliners. And it was a habit for him. . .

Quote:

Captain David Carlson, commander of the USS Sides, the warship stationed near to the Vincennes at the time of the incident, is reported (Fisk, 2005) to have said that the destruction of the aircraft "marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers' aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago." His comment referred to incidents on June 2, when Rogers had sailed the Vincennes too close to an Iranian frigate undertaking a lawful search of a bulk carrier, launched a helicopter within 2-3 miles (3.2-4.8 km) of an Iranian small craft despite rules of engagement requiring a four-mile (6.4 km) separation, and opened fire on a number of small Iranian military boats.

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

Of course, seeing as George I wasn't President at the time, you've made no point.

Ah yesthe GOP granddaddy ronald raygun was CINC at the time. Looks like his Alzheimer's kicked in a bit early (and spared Capt. Rogers career).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

Oh, and you clearly don't know the first fucking thing abot the "real Navy".

There's nothing to know--the US doesn't have one.

Steve · #25 (**permalink**) 01-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by solletica

Read what I wrote (above): I said his trigger-happiness was a recurrent habit, not him downing commercial airliners. And it was a habit for him

He was aggressive; that's certainly true.

Then again, I don't know of too many CO's, in the Navy of any country, who are passive...

Quote:

Ah yesthe GOP granddaddy ronald raygun was CINC at the time. Looks like his Alzheimer's kicked in a bit early (and spared Capt. Rogers career).

Of course, you ignore how silly you made yourself look by trying to lay the blame at the feet of the first President Bush.

Dance, Solletica... dance for me, baby...

Quote:

There's nothing to know--the US doesn't have one.

Now, this is truly evidence that you know not of what you speak...

Imperator · #26 (**permalink**) 01-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thematic-Device

Not exactly an uncommon attitude

The Iraqi military mistook a formation of jets for a 747. The USSR shot down a Korean airliner. Errors occur in warfare.

KAL flight 007 doesn't count, air to air visual id was made by the pilot etc...

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