There was no analogy. I said that "merely questioning aspects of history", as well as "merely questioning aspects of biology" (respectively: the holocaust didn't happen, and non-whites are savage beasts) leads to violence. I should perhaps have said "violence and injustice".

Attending to a highly political, anti-jewish conference such as this one is saying something about these historians. I am not linking the historians with the regime, they did it by themselves, in a very obvious way.


It doesn't surprise me that you used this tactic before. I never did, and I didn't do it today either.
My point wasn't that you shouldn't defend your views. My point was that you should avoid doing such things as... the parts quoted above. That's what I call trolling:I don't expect you to look for anything but to troll, when you write what you just wrote. What? I'm linking the historians with the regime just because they attended a revisionist conference in tehran?!? The same goes for your claim that I made an "analogy".


I suppose this last exchange will be enough for any spectators to judge. I'm going to sleep.

__________________
Client: In six days, do you hear me, six days, God made the world. And you are not bloody well capable of making me a pair of trousers in three months!
Tailor: But my dear Sir, my dear Sir, look at the world, and look at my trousers.
(Beckett)

Maybe you should more careful with your wording in the future....

You just introduced the conference as a means to poison the well against the historians. This conference has nothing to do with the truthfulness of their claims and you know it; it had no relevance to the issue at hand.

What makes me laugh the most is this alleged 'anti-Jewish' conference had SIX Jewish speakers! Rabbis Yisroel Dovid Weiss, Aharon Cohen and Moshe Aryeh Friedman of Neturei Karta were three of the featured speakers! Rabbie Cohen supported the traditional historical view of the holocaust in his speech.

Rabbi Aharon Cohen told the conference:

There is no doubt whatsoever, that during World War II there developed a terrible and catastrophic policy and action of genocide perpetrated by Nazi Germany against the Jewish People, confirmed by innumerable eyewitness survivors and fully documented again and again. I personally was spared the worst effects of the War because I was living in England which thankfully was not occupied by Nazi Germany. However, I and many many others lost countless friends and relatives who perished under the Nazi rule by intentional murder and genocide. Three million Jews in Poland, more than half a million in Hungary, many tens or hundreds of thousands in Russia, Slovakia, France, Belgium, Holland and more. The figure of six million is regularly quoted. One may wish to dispute this actual figure, but the crime was just as dreadful whether the millions (and there were millions) of victims numbered six million, five million or four million. The method of murder is also irrelevant, whether it was by gas chamber (and there were eyewitnesses to this), firing squads or whatever. The evil was the same. It would be a terrible affront to the memory of those who perished to belittle the guilt of the crime in any way

International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an anti-Jewish pro-Holocaust 'denial' conference!?

Of course this is what you did; you introduced this alleged anti-Jewish holocaust conference that was specifically hosted by a regime YOU EMPHASISED is allegedly dedicated to a second holocaust of the Jews! You used this as evidence of the character of the historians for attending this conference; if this is not drawing a link between the historians and the Iranian regime...I have no idea of what would qualify as a link!

Does that mean I will not be receiving another snotty PM or should I expect more of those from you as you try to take the high road on the public forum?

[quote]Whille it is clear Frank is a fascist, the point about free speech is valid. Here in the US there are no laws regarding holocost deniers. We just laugh at them when they rear their ugly heads. It is so much more effective than simply telling them to shut up. All that does is drive it underground, it doesn't stop it. But the populace of those countries feel better because they think they have done something positive. In fact they haven't but that is for another discussion.


[quote]You know Frank doesn't want a debate. He has never been about debates. Frankly I am curious as to why he bothered to come back. It was certainly his right to do so, but I would have thought he had enough embarassment the last time he was hear and posting.

__________________

The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

Your Mr. Finkelstein does not question either the number of casulaties nor the methods. In fact, he says :
Add to that the gypsies, homosexuals and so on and we're back at 6 million. Holocaust denial, and the relevant laws, have nothing to do with whether or not the Holocaust is politically exploited, which is Mr. Finkelsteins topic. As Mr. Finkelstein states, rational people no longer debate the essence of the Holocaust. In that sense, it might indeed be better if holocaust deniers were not fined, but confined, to mental institutions.

No civil rights are harmed. Since when are European laws subject to the American interpretation of freedom of speech ? An overwhelming majority of Europeans finds it more important to honour the victims of an unprecedented atrocity than to subscribe to an interpretation of freedom of speech that is not theirs. I hope you allow Europeans to retain their sovereignty ?

As for the uniqueness of the event, which other people was ever targeted for complete extermination in an industrial fashion ? None.
And what on earth have 'Israeli crimes' to do with the subject ? A slip where you show your real issue ?

That settles the racist character I ascribed to you. You have just proven it.
And who are those 'privileged minorities' ?

That has been done. As your own source says : Rational people do no longer put that in question.

And you keep showing that they are justified and therefore mere factual observations.

Yep, those are good documents for this case. However, do you necessarily beleive that a State Security Service (SBU) speaks the truth about having disclosed all documents ? Once these documents are exhaustively researched and it is established by independent sources that all documents have been provided, and all documents show that the famine was intentionally targeted towards Ukrainans, and that relief was intentionally withheld, then it would be acceptable to treat the Holodomor with the same respect the Holocaust has. It's probably a decade away though as these documents have been made available for just a few months yet.

I was replying to your own figures of 12-15 years. Don't move the goalposts.

LOL. Bad example. Zundel established a printing firm called Samisdat and disseminated tons of pure unadulterated nazi propaganda.
Incidentally, Zundel also claims UFO's are secret Nazi weapons based on Antarctica that will some day be used for a resurgence of Nazism. And that's the kind of people you seek to protect ?

Well, Zundel is already shown for what he's worth and your precious Frenchman heads the fascist faction in the European Parliament. What more association do you need ?

I took the liberty of quoting a part of a post you addressed to someone else because it is so significant to your ideas:
Every civilized people in history honours its dead. It is a most basic ingredient to a worthwile society. And yet you can't even imagine that Jews would want this too. Amazing.

__________________
"Say not, 'When I have free time I shall study'; for you may perhaps never have any free time"
Hillel the Elder

I am well aware of what he says! That does not change the fact that I support his assertion I quoted. Personally, if he is entirely correct then lets arrange a public debate in the heart of Europe between the Historical revisionists and traditionalists and have at it! Hell, why would you not support such a thing knowing your side would win hands down?

Of course their civil rights are being harmed. They are being imprisoned, fined and persecuted for the non-violent peaceful expression of their historical views. This would be no different in principle than jailing a Muslim for the non-violent expression of his religious views. The only difference is you would oppose the latter!

So in other words the overwhelming majority of Europeans support the fascistic persecution of innocent people who did nothing wrong except express a dissenting view of history?


I doubt that the Ukrainians, Rwandans and Darfurians would share your view on that one; neither would Dr. Norman Finkelstein.

I was expanding the issue actually; again Dr. Finkelstein would agree with me.

Calling me a 'racist' does not impact the validity of my claims....

Any group that it is illegal to offend or criticise; it varies by nation.

Which should have people like you supporting an open debate on the issue.

Do you support the documentation provided by the Soviets and Poles on the Holocaust?

I highly doubt that you would do so regardless; just a hunch. The Holodomor is accepted as a genocide by the Ukraine, Argentina, Australia, Azerbaijan, Belgium, Canada, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Poland, United States, and Vatican City. Tell me why do you believe these nations accept the Holodomor as such? I am merely asking for an opinion here...

As well how much of the holocaust documentation have you read? Since you are so big on documented proof and all? Have you read the documents? Have you examined them thoroughly?

Re-read my post I said '12-15 years or more.' Hmmmm...and you accuse me of poor reading comprehension.

Can you give me an example of such 'Nazi Propaganda.'

Evidence?

Considering that your definition of a 'fascist' is probably anything right of Lenin; this does not mean a heck of a lot.

Jews, Muslims, Christians, Satanists, Buddhists etc...can feel anyway they wish about their dead; I simpy do not believe in jailing people for hurting the feelings of such groups. I also do not believe in persecuting people because they allegedly dishonoured the memory of those who are dead.

It's funny, the whole thing reminds me of all those "kinetic vs normal people" debates. I'm glad I left the discussion.

*goes out of the thread real fast*

__________________
Client: In six days, do you hear me, six days, God made the world. And you are not bloody well capable of making me a pair of trousers in three months!
Tailor: But my dear Sir, my dear Sir, look at the world, and look at my trousers.
(Beckett)

Wait. The issue here is Holocaust denial, not the political exploitation of it. That's a whole different issue that should receive its own thread if you feel so strongly about it.

Yet again you are applying the rights that exist in one location to occurences in another. These laws are constitutional in the countries where they apply. For better or worse, it is the government of these countries that decide what is a civil right or not. In these countries, Holocaust denial is obviously not a civil right, as it is a criminal offense.
With regards to the hypothetical muslim, yes, if Ahmadinejad, or any other mulsim denies the holocaust, the same treatment should follow. As for any other statements, that entirely depends on the statement, and would most likely not be a problem as only the Holocaust, so far, falls under the law in question.

Not at all. As said before, they do not think that the victims and descendants of the victims should suffer even more for the sake of fascists and Neo Nazis.

Well, you'll free to hold a poll amongst the Ukrainians, Rwandese and inhabitants of Darfur and to present the results.

That's an expansion that is totally and entirely off topic. I'm glad you're psychic too and know the mind of Dr. Finkelstein so well.

No, but your outing as one says a lot about your motives.

Care to provide a few examples ? Say for the USA, your country (I'm unsure which that is), Belgium and Israel ?

There are far more pressing issues than something that is completely settled and exhausted.

Insofar credible historians have authenticated them and corroborative evidence exist.

Your hunch would be wrong. You consider me to be an extreme lefty, but my main issue is not with right or left, but with authority. My first tenet is anti-authoritarianism and Stalin and friends are amongst the worst of authoritarians. You mentioned Lenin on several occasions. Well, he and his buddies Trotzky and Zinoviev betrayed the anarchist cause on three separate occasions (Kronstadt, the Ukrainian revolt and the Spanish Civil War). So once, and for all: I'm not a State Communist.

Well, my opinion is that you can scrap Belgium from your list. The Holodomor is not recognized as a genocide by the Belgian government. On 6/7/6, Francis Van den Eynde (Vlaams Belang ) introduced a Proposition about it, yet it has not even been handled by the 'Kamer' (similar to the American 'House'). Its status is 'pending'. Are your other claims as credible as the one about Belgium ?
I have a source, but it is Dutch only I'm afraid: (or French : substitute the "nl" with "fr" in the link).
De Kamer

I've read many documents, yes, though don't expect me to quantify such by number of pages or kg. Since the advent of the Net, I also read a lot online.
So ?

I'm sorry, I didn't realize 'and more' extended into infinity.

Et voilà :
Holocaust denier Ernst Zündel's UFO Research
It's hard to imagine a more ridiculous pamphlet you know.

Cf. supra

Fine. We do. Sovereignty, remember ?

__________________
"Say not, 'When I have free time I shall study'; for you may perhaps never have any free time"
Hillel the Elder

No the issue is free speech actually....

Last time I checked the United Nations Covenant of Civil and Political Rights and European Human Right Conventions applied to Europe though I suppose they are not truly worth the paper they are written on....

I think you missed my point?

Again, considering that you seem to view anything right of Lenin as 'fascist' this is a meaningless label coming from you.

I need a poll to illustrate such a point?

One does not need to be a psychic to understand Dr. Finkelstein, simple reading comprehension would do...

My motives have no bearing on the validity of my arguments; it is sad that you cannot apparently comprehend this basic point of logic.

We could start with the Canadian Human Rights Act enforced by a blatant Moscow Show Trial (minus the executions) tribunal process which has specifically targetted whites under Section 13.1 who have offended various minority groups.

It is settled in the minds of those who seek to justify their nation's unjust persecution of the innocent.

I highly doubt you could even name any of the historians in question let alone present their academic views on the matter.

I tend to view people who throw the term 'fascist' around like a farmer tosses fertilizer to the field in such a manner. The constant ad hominem 'fascist' labelling stinks of 'antifa' logic and strategy.

Lets use their real names shall we? Trotsky was Lev Bronstein and Zinoviev was known as Hirsch Apfelbaum.


The inventor of the term "genocide", Raphael Lemkin, was a featured speaker at the manifestation of Ukrainian-Americans in September 1953 to commemorate the twentieth anniversary of the famine.[1] Today, the heads of state, governments or parliaments of 26 countries,}} consider the 1932-1933 famine as an act of genocide among them Ukraine, Argentina, Australia, Azerbaijan, Belgium, Canada, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Poland, United States, and Vatican City.

-Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia - 'Holodomor'

Why should I believe you over Wikipedia?


Then it is useless to me as I do not read Dutch; something you already know. If someone wishes to translate, be my guest.

Simple really; I do not believe you have read any such documents, since you claim that one genocide carries more weight then another, I would assume you are an expert researcher on both events to have the nerve to make such a judgement...

Maybe you should read more carefully before posting a response in the future?

Using a clearly biased source to prove this claim? To make matters worse your biased does not provide any links to the alleged Zundel claims in question.

Tell me if I tried to substantiate my claims with Stormfront articles; would you accept them at face value?

Just remember that 'Sovereignty' bit the next time EU nations launch an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign Arab state...

No Kinetic is actually more entertaining than this guy. They clearly both only know how to spout propoganda, but at least Kinetic adds pictures to his posts so if you get tired reading his drivel you have pretty pictures to look at. With this guy the only alternative is to scroll down to the next poster and hope for something a little more intelligent.

__________________

The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu