Look I am not trying to debate whether people like Frank are good, in my view historical revisionist is worthwhile, but it comes down to how do you deal with them. Your simpler faster procedure in fact hasn't dealt with them, as is evidenced that since 1945 you still have the holocost deniers and people like WOI, who I respect, are still worried that their political parties could actually make a difference in European politics. Our own groups that would be comperable in our own history are groups like the KKK. Can they get elected to office? Yes, in fact they have at state and local elections. THere are probably even one or two that hold Senate of House seats. But because we deal with this issue in the open and don't force it underground I have no fear that any of these groups will ever gain enough power to actually make a difference in American political life.

Look at the David Duke case as an example. The man is a professed KKK member, and has run for a number or offices in US and Louisianna politics. He ran for the Louisianna house and senate and governor then for the US house and senate and finally for the Presidency. He won one Louisiann senate race I believe but lost al the others. He lost them not because we have laws against his kind of thinking and speech but because we let him spew off at the mouth. Once his beliefs were known and publicized the campaigns against him were successful. Sure he got some votes, in fact he made it a fairly close race in some of the state elections, but it is Louisianna after all. However he was laughed off the stage when he ran for the President. Why? Because we allowed him to talk so we knew what he stood for.

Your laws on the other hand force people to keep their true feelings about the hoocost a secret, unless they want to end up in front of a court. So they shut up about their beiefs and then if they decide to run for elected office you have no idea of their true feelings on the matter. No it is much better to let these fools spout off at the mouth and know where they are comming from. To have a law like you do tells me you have no faith in the public. It tells me that given a choice between to candidates with known positions on the holocost you have no faith that they will make the right choice. And because you have no faith in your publics ability to make the right choice you have kept a law on the books that has not been able to achieve its goal. You still have deniers but instead of confronting them in the open, you have forced them underground. That may be progress to you, but it isn't to me.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

'People like Frank?' How come I feel like an Arab in a room full of neo-cons?

Dr. Duke is not a member of any Klan organisation. In fact his affiliation with his particular group ended about three decades ago.

That and as Wikipedia put its...A massive campaign was launched against him, with celebrities and organizations donating thousands to Edwards' campaign to defeat Duke. A popular bumper sticker read, "Vote for the Crook. It's Important." When a reporter asked Edwards what he needed to do to triumph over Duke, Edwards replied with a smile, "Stay alive."

He did better than get 'some votes' in both state legislature and senate elections. When he ran for the Senate in 1990 he secured 43% of the vote on the first ballot. In 1991 he secured 32% of the vote and beat our fellow Republican Buddy Roemer; on the second ballot he still secured 39% of the vote. Even in 1996 during that election Senate run he still managed to secure 322,000+ votes.

I suppose being a third party candidate in a two party system had nothing to do with that? Sorry guys for turning this into a Dr. David Duke debate but I do believe in setting the record straight when the need arises.

Who has proven that revisionist arguments are either of those things? Who exactly has had an open debate with people like Toben, Graf and Rudolf on the very issue on aspects of the holocaust?

So EU nations avoid heavy judiciary procedures by creating laws that result in more heavy judiciary procedures?

Were not talking about insulting people but the right to free expression of a historical view.

The difference is people do not go to jail for questioning whether the earth was flat or not! Let me explain the importance of free speech in a democratic society; since Gort brought Dr. Duke up in this conversation allow me to quote the good Doctor on the very issue...

Really think about that...do you actually know what the revisionists believe? Do you know their positions? Do they 'deny'
the holocaust or question aspects of it? What do you really know about their views?

[quote]Because in fact you are in my view a fool. You stare history in the face and simply prefer to believe it never happened. I have no time for people like that.


[quote]Please do not insult my intelligence. He joined the KKK in the 1960's He founded the Louisianna Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in 1974. While you may be technically right that he left that group in 1978 it wasn't because all of a sudden he understood anything. Instead it was to found the group National Association for the Advancement of White People. Of course in 2005 that group again decided to change its name and is now called the National Association for the Advancement of Working People.

[quote]That right there aught to tell you something. They were willing to elect a crook over a racist. And this in Louisianna which isn't one of the states in the US known for having an exeplary civil rights record. Even there Dukes philosophy was over the top for the ordinary citizen.

[quote]Louisianna has a screwed up electoral system, more so than just about any other state in teh nation, but the fact of the matter is he still lost. And as I said before this in a state with a piss poor civil rights background.

[quote]Perhaps you need to really set the record straight. His first couple of elections were as a Democrat, then he ran as a Republican. Well lets really set the record straight shall we. He is the link to Dukes history.
David Duke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This isn't a matter of taking the conversation off track. THis is a good example of why it is important to let people like this jack ass speak his mind. Had he not been able to he may very well have won some of these offices and then been able to follow through on the way he feels about the races. Since his views were well known the only real support he got was from radical racist groups nationwide and in the face of a nationwide effort to counter it it simply wasn't enough.

Frank has done here what revisionists do. He has tried to take the fat that Duke got the percentages he did and point out how popular he was. The fact of the matter is anyone who knows Louisianna politics knows how screwed up its system is. It was the one state where Duke had any hope at all of even being elected to the position of dog catcher.
[quote]We both agree on free expression, which is all we agree on, but for very different reasons. You think you can sway people to your point of view, and the European governments are actually worried about that so they try to stop you. I believe people are smarter than that and they will simply laugh at your attempts to sway them. Sure some will listen, but then some will listen to just about any conspiracy theory. Just look at Analyst as a perfect example of how gulible some people are. However they are the minority.
[quote]Duke is a racist jackass pure and simple, and frankly you are not far behind since you clearly hold him in high esteem. I have no illusions about his politics, nor do many of my fellow citizens. We know who and what he is. It is just unfortuante that he happens to be an American by accident of birth.

But still I would rather give him enough rope in the form of the ability to speak his mind so that he can hang himself with it rather than force him to keep his ideas and beliefs hidden.

__________________

The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

[quote=Gort;900621]Ignoring your cheap unprovoked ad hominem attack; What 'history' have I ignored?


So I am insulting your 'intelligence' even though you admit that I am indeed correct in my claim?

No mention of EURO? I am amazed that you missed that one Gort? However, you do understand that forming a special interest group does not mean that he is a 'professed member' of the Klan?

It tells me smear campaigns work. Your recent elections in America should prove that point nicely...

I do not believe that I credited him with numerous victories; I merely pointed out that he was very competitive in vote totals on numerous occasions.

As a democrat he secured quite a large percentage of the vote on the state level and did so as well as a Republican. I fail to see where you are going with this angle?

'Radical racist groups!?' Hmmmm....and people say that white nationalists are conspiracy theorists! So the 600,000+ people who voted for Duke in 1990 were 'radical racist?' How about the 671,000+ who voted for him in 1991?

How am I being a 'revisionist' when I gave you accurate figures? Exactly what is wrong with this statement?

He did better than get 'some votes' in both state legislature and senate elections. When he ran for the Senate in 1990 he secured 43% of the vote on the first ballot. In 1991 he secured 32% of the vote and beat our fellow Republican Buddy Roemer; on the second ballot he still secured 39% of the vote. Even in 1996 during that election Senate run he still managed to secure 322,000+ votes.

You will find that nothing I said is untrue and if anything you actually created and attacked a strawman claiming that I pointed out that Dr. David Duke met some arbitrary definition of 'popular.' I merely presented the facts.

Actually I deal in facts; people who 'laugh' in such a manner tend to do so as a last ditch effort to belittle their opponent in the eyes of the audience and much like you they also tend to resort to cheap ad hominem attacks when reality fails them.

You cannot debate the issues; you merely attack me when the opportunity arises and then you apparently attempt to take some moral, ideological and intellectual high ground which is actually a joke since you have behaved much like a rabid pitbull in this thread.

You just proved my last point. You cannot rationally discuss the issues so you resort to personal attacks.

I doubt very much that you have any idea as to what he believes on a political and ideological level. How many conversations have you had with him? Have you read his books or do you just believe whatever Wikipedia and the ADL tells you?

And when he does not hang himself we can count on tolerant liberal minded free-speech supporters like yourself to show up to 'belittle' him correct?

Frank you have given us nothing. You claimed he ran as a third party candidate. That was only because he couldn't first get elected as a Republican or a Democrat to the offices he wanted.

As for you claiming to be right about the KKK I suppose you feel as soon as he left that organization he turned over a new leaf and renounced his racist beliefs? He is still active in Stormfront as you undoubtedly know and if you read his own website you will find him as racist as he ever was back when he was a member of the KKK. Snakes shed their skins all the time but it doesn't make them less of a snake. However if you believe we are all as stupid as you seem to think we are then I can see how his leaving the KKK would make a difference to you.

Now if that weren't enough not only is he a racist but he is also a crrok that swindled money from his own supporters.

Finally here are the election results for Dukes attempts to gain public office

The man is pond scum and always has been pond scum. I mean the idiot actually wore Nazi uniforms while celebrating the birthday of Hitler. If that isn't enough he actually wrote about how blacks were inferior to whites and spent 250 pages on anti Jewish tanting in his book. Personally I was glad there were pictures of that and that he could get a book published because it just reinforced what I have been telling WOI that it is better to get these guys out in the open rather than forcing them underground with their bullshit thinking.

No your defense of the man just makes it that much clearer how much of a racist you are. Frankly as far as I am concerned racists have to elevate themselves a lot to reach the level of pond scum.

__________________

The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

Except the truth!

So my claim is correct?

I claim to be correct and you even conceded that point.

He posts on a community forum for white nationalists...so what? What does this have to do with the Klan?

Again what does this have to do with the Klan? Are you not mature enough to admit that you were wrong in your claim about his being a 'professed' member of the Klan?

You made a false claim and I exposed it; simple as that!

To be fair, I should present the following in his defence..

My Opinion on the David Duke Case by an American friend

British National Party - Chairman Nick Griffin - Working to secure a future for British children

And on the state level he garnered large percentages of the vote and performed quite well in the Senatorial races. This list does not disprove any claim that I made earlier.

He wore such a uniform in his youth on an occasion during a picket protest of some far leftist; at least that is how I understand it from him. Since that event happened in 1974 I am not inclined to judge the man from something he did 33 years ago.

Have you read the book in question? Or are you just parroting what the ADL and other militant 'anti-racists' and Zionists have told you?

Whatever you say...

I would rather be racist 'pond scum' that can defend his views rather than a hatefilled intolerant liberal who speaks with a forked-tongue, launches ad hominem attacks and belittling anyone who holds a view on diversity he opposes.

[quote]Well congratulations, you have succeeded wonderfully in your quest.

__________________

The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

Coming from someone with the level of hate, intolerance and venom you possess that means very little to me. If I were you I would bow out of this thread; all of these vicious unprovoked ideological-motivated personal attacks on your part cannot be enhancing your reputation with the more rational posters on USPOL.

Frank I hardly think the more rational posters at USPOL are going to see my confrronting your racism with any disdain at all. Besides I thought you were all for the freedom of speech, or was that only when it involved people who thought like you do.

__________________

The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

I doubt a rational poster would support someone substituting debate with abusive ad hominem attacks...

Unlike you I do not believe in belittling people for nothing more then expressing a view I do not like. You may not believe in 'thought crime' laws but you do believe in attacking and belittling certain people who dare to hold and express a view you do not like.

No w I believe in calling it like I see it. If you take offense that is your problem not mine. I do not take offense at your beliefs or comments because they are just you opinions. Why you are getting so upset at my opinions is frankly beyond me.

Unless I give you a source for something here it is my opinion only, and even when sources are given the poster is still giving you thier opinion they just back it up with other sources. If it bothers you that much that I hold you and frankly all racists in low esteem perhaps you should grow a thicker skin. If all you are going to do is play semantic games and insult my intelligence then frankly there is no reason to treat you with respect or as a rational poster. So I don't.

__________________

The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu