America's covert postwar intimacy with Japanese right wing fascists - Page 4 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

Luke · #46 (**permalink**) 02-28-2007

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Originally Posted by Thematic-Device

China doesn't keep its atrocities within its territory, unless you forgot that you supported Kim Il Sung and currently supports Kim Jong Il, and that it annexed Tibet, fired SRBMs at Taiwan in order to meddle with its elections. But I guess the US would be just dandy if we took the Chinese Governments approach and simply claimed that Iraq was always part of the US and decried any country meddling in its "domestic affairs"

Chinese army does not go to North Korea and kill them like American army kill and rape the people in other countries who does not show obedience to Washington.

Taiwan, as well as Tibet, is Chinese territory, so my statement is scientifically accurate. Regarding the civil war status across Taiwan Strait and Tibet issues, refer to my posts in many many previous threads.

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Were it coming from someone else, perhaps not, but the matter of demonization comes from the intent behind it, and from our past discussions, and the fact that this was already well known, makes me doubt you just wanted to have a debate on history.

As long as you cannot logically prove what my intent is with hard evidence, you lose in court for spreading rumors about me.

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Ah reciprocity with no claim to the facts.

Since Americans have no facts, why do Chinese reciprocal actions need facts?? Oh, maybe you have the facts similar to the WMD in Iraq?!

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Yet South Korea and Taiwan, for all their faults in the past, now butcher no one, while the nation the CCP loves to thump their chests and claim their support of is widely considered the worst hellhole on earth. Operation Paperclip, and others like it can claim many achievements, the US's ability to place a man on the moon, and the maintenance of mutually assured destruction was a direct result of recruiting Nazi Physicists and Rocket Scientists.
What good has come of China parading it every year to justify its xenophobia?

I think the worst hellhole in the earth now is Iraq and Afganistan.

China has no xenophobia, even if there are, only American and Japanese threats justify it, not the parades. There are so many foreigners in China, and I bet you can hardly find any HATE CRIMES against foreigners in China. We are not racist Americans or Japanese.

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Japanese Culture is exported to the US too, but it doesn't need to go through censors in order to do so here. And I'm sorry if I think there might be a slight bit of cognitive dissonance existing when someone's government tries to convince him nigh his entire life that the Japanese are evil

Japanese culture in America?? Don't google, tell me what is the third largest city in Japan and what is the difference between a Sammurai and a Ninja. Go back to school and get your high school diploma again. Do you even dare to have a competition with me to see who knows more Japanese history, geography, language and literature?? I think government censorship is only effective to those people like TD.

metalted · #47 (**permalink**) 02-28-2007

luke i think it is not a good thing that either of us demonize each other. although I may have some concerns with your leadership as you may have of mine. i believe it is in our mutual self interest to act with mutual friendship. the back in forth, you did this you did that will increase a sense of paranoia and may in the long term bring us closer to a needless pointless conflict. i am not sure if there is anyway to stop this distrust but I believe it is self perpetuating, and not really based on much..

but i will say for you information, northkorea invaded south korea, the UN lead by the USA backed south korea. and china backed the aggressor NK.

Thematic-Device · #48 (**permalink**) 03-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke

Chinese army does not go to North Korea and kill them like American army kill and rape the people in other countries who does not show obedience to Washington.

Easy there the CCP propaganda is getting to you, North Korea routinely kills and rapes its people and that is what the Chinese Army went into North Korea to preserve. It couldn't stand the though of a free and independent North Korea, nor could it stand the thought of people living in peace. What about the cozy relationship with Sudan? Did China see another country prosecuting a genocide and decide it found a friend?

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Taiwan, as well as Tibet, is Chinese territory,

No more then Korea or India are parts of Chinese Territory.

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As long as you cannot logically prove what my intent is with hard evidence, you lose in court for spreading rumors about me.

Having an opinion about your intent, particularly when it is so blatant is hardly spreading a rumor.

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Since Americans have no facts, why do Chinese reciprocal actions need facts?

I'm sorry, we have plenty of facts, from the persecution of the falun gong, to reverse matching of organs...

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I think the worst hellhole in the earth now is Iraq and Afganistan.

Oddly enough, the Afghani's like the US and Canada, and no, with the Taliban largely beaten into the south any prospect of the Taliban even coming close to North Korea are part of a distant past. But I'm sure Xinhua told you that the North Koreans love to have chemical weapons tested on them, to be tortured, beaten, raped, and killed, and they love to have it done by China's puppet.

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China has no xenophobia, even if there are, only American and Japanese threats justify it, not the parades. There are so many foreigners in China, and I bet you can hardly find any HATE CRIMES against foreigners in China. We are not racist Americans or Japanese.

You (personally) are not racist? I disagree.

Someone who continues to decry the US for the working conditions during the construction of the railroads, is quite plainly seeking to find justification for his racism.

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what is the difference between a Sammurai and a Ninja.

This is your test? Are you serious?

A samurai follows bushido, and is a soldier in the service of a feudal lord, a part of a caste of warriors of the highly stratified in ancient japan. They were the top of the social scale until the in the Tokugawa Shogunate they were largely seeing their power replaced by the merchant classes.

A ninja, and shinobis like them were not bound to bushido, were disdained by the warrior class, and did not view it as honorable to die in battle like the Samurai envisioned, taking down as many enemies as possible, and instead would seek to either escape or to kill themselves. There is some debate whether Ninjas existed as they are currently envisioned, due to an incredibly sparse collection of historical sources on them, although there were certainly assassins and spies the debate lies in the extent and role they played.

So heres my question, can you outline the time period directly before the formation of the Tokugawa Shogunate, say from Oda Nobunaga's battles up to the battle of Sekigahara?

Howabout the Meiji Restoration, what were its primary causes, what was its ultimately ironic conclusion?

Fascinatingly enough, we get quite the selection of translated History books on japan, even ones written domestically.

enigma2 · #49 (**permalink**) 03-01-2007

Fellas, I really don't care about these 'tests' can we get back on topic.

The actions taken 60 years ago could have a negative impact on the part of the world I live in. Can we get back to that?

Luke, I'm concerned that the Japanese government, along with past governments, are still refusing to acknowledge their treatment of women during WWII. An Australian woman has been giving testimony before a Congressional hearing, along with many Korean women, about her use as a 'comfort woman'. She has stated that she was a young virgin at the time of her capture and was raped and made use of by the Japanese occupiers.

It is very brave of her to make this statement, in fact, she kept quiet about it for many years. However, when she heard that Japan was denying that they had used captured, or local, women for this purpose, she decided she must also speak out.

We can only hope that the US brings its influence to bear on the Japanese government and the atrocities committed by Japan during WWII will finally be acknowledged.

Apparently, the Japanese people are not told about these atrocities. The building of the Burma railroad by Australian and British prisoners of war is a particular disgrace.

metalted · #50 (**permalink**) 03-01-2007

of course enigma still finds away to blame japanese atrocities on america. amazing.

enigma2 · #51 (**permalink**) 03-01-2007

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Originally Posted by metalted

of course enigma still finds away to blame japanese atrocities on america. amazing.

ted, for yr own benefit, not to mention mine, take a course in analysing text!

And drop the silly sniping!

metalted · #52 (**permalink**) 03-01-2007

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Originally Posted by enigma2

ted, you show every day in your posts just how much you care!! You're sharp as a tack, ted!!

'stop the sniping'... you first.

metalted · #53 (**permalink**) 03-01-2007

why is it america that is supposed to get the blame for not forcing japs to take responsibility instead of japanese to blame for not accepting responsibility. other nations like australia could just as easily do the same thing.

metalted · #54 (**permalink**) 03-01-2007

and dont forget.. that many atrocities were commited by japanese against american soldiers and civilians..

enigma2 · #55 (**permalink**) 03-01-2007

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Originally Posted by metalted

'stop the sniping'... you first.

Someone pointed it out to you, did they?

metalted · #56 (**permalink**) 03-01-2007

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Originally Posted by enigma2

Someone pointed it out to you, did they?

stop the sniping'... you first.

i am not as stupid as i pretend to be.

enigma2 · #57 (**permalink**) 03-02-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by metalted

luke i think it is not a good thing that either of us demonize each other. although I may have some concerns with your leadership as you may have of mine. i believe it is in our mutual self interest to act with mutual friendship. the back in forth, you did this you did that will increase a sense of paranoia and may in the long term bring us closer to a needless pointless conflict. i am not sure if there is anyway to stop this distrust but I believe it is self perpetuating, and not really based on much..

but i will say for you information, northkorea invaded south korea, the UN lead by the USA backed south korea. and china backed the aggressor NK.

Umm! ted, the north couldn't have invaded the south, it was all the one country. Just like Vietnam before the US intervened after France was kicked out!

metalted · #58 (**permalink**) 03-02-2007

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Originally Posted by enigma2

Umm! ted, the north couldn't have invaded the south, it was all the one country. Just like Vietnam before the US intervened after France was kicked out!

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On August 10, 1945 with the Japanese surrender imminent and following a plan drawn up earlier by the United States, the United States and the Soviet Union agreed to divide Korea along the 38th parallel. Japanese forces north of that line would surrender to the Soviet Union, and those to the south to the United States. Thus, without consulting the Korean people, the two major powers divided the Korean peninsula into two occupation zones, thereby putting into place the foundation for the civil war. Although later policies and actions contributed to Korea's division, the United States did not envision this as a permanent partition.[8]

In mid 1949, Kim Il-Sung pressed his case with Joseph Stalin that the time had come for a reunification of the Korean peninsula. Kim needed Soviet support to successfully execute an offensive far across a rugged, mountainous peninsula. Stalin as leader of the communist bloc refused permission, concerned with the relative unpreparedness of the North Korean armed forces and with possible U.S. involvement.
Over the following year, the North Korean leadership molded the North Korean army into a formidable offensive war machine modeled partly on a Soviet mechanized force, but strengthened primarily by an influx of Koreans who had served with the Chinese People’s Liberation Army since the 1930s. By 1950 the North Korean military was equipped with outdated Soviet weaponry, yet it enjoyed substantial advantages over the Southern forces in virtually every category of equipment. After another visit by Kim to Moscow in March-April of 1950, Stalin approved an attack.

The North Koreans attacked across a broad front, including Gaeseong, Chuncheon, Uijeongbu, and Ongjin. Within a few days, ROK forces, many of whom were of dubious loyalty to the southern regime, outnumbered and out-gunned, were in full retreat. As the ground attack continued, the North Korean Air Force bombed Gimpo Airport near the ROK capital of Seoul. Seoul itself was captured on the afternoon of June 28, but the North Koreans failed to secure the quick surrender of the Rhee government. Kim Il-Sung expected a quick victory, but that did not happen. He did not expect the war to last long enough for American intervention, so there were no significant defenses prepared against American air attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

i am actually surprised that you are trying to argue this enigma.. its really common knowledge.

metalted · #59 (**permalink**) 03-02-2007

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Unlike the other French possessions in Indochina (Annam, Tonkin, Cambodia and Laos), which were nominally protectorates, the southern part of Vietnam was the colony of Cochin-China, which had its capital at Saigon. As a colony it occupied a different legal position from the protectorates of Annam and Tonkin; it had been annexed to France in 1862, and even elected a deputy to the French National Assembly. French colonial interests were thus stronger in Cochin-China than in other parts of French Indochina. As such, during the First Indochina War the French government initially attempted to keep the status of Cochin-China separate from that of the rest of Vietnam, even going so far as constituting it an independent republic within the Indochinese Federation in 1946, but this proved unacceptable to the Viet Minh and in 1949 Cochin-China was eventually reunited with the other parts of Vietnam (Annam and Tonkin).
The State of Vietnam was created through co-operation between anti-communist Vietnamese and the French government on June 14, 1949 during the First Indochina War, and the Emperor Bao Dai took up the position of Chief of State (Quoc Truong). This was known as the 'Bao Dai Solution', and was an attempt by the French to grant partial independence to Vietnam, while still retaining substantial control over the country, and keeping it from communist rule. Such a formulation was rejected by the communist Viet Minh, led by Ho Chi Minh, who were fighting the French for full independence for Vietnam.
In 1954 it was determined by the Geneva Conference that the State of Vietnam would rule the territory of Vietnam south of the 17th parallel, of which the former colony of Cochin-China formed the heartland, pending unification on the basis of supervised elections (see Geneva Conference (1954)) in 1956. The elections and unification did not take place as planned (see below). When the territory was divided in this way, approximately 800,000 to 1 million North Vietnamese, mainly Vietnamese Roman Catholics, fled south due to the perceived danger of religious persecution in the North. The Republic of Vietnam was proclaimed in Saigon by Ngô Ðình Diệm on October 22, 1955, after the Emperor Bảo Ðại was deposed.

South Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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The Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRVN), or less commonly, Vietnamese Democratic Republic (Vietnamese: Việt Nam Dân Chủ Cộng Hòa), also known as North Vietnam, was proclaimed by Hồ Chí Minh in Hànội on September 2, 1945 as a provisional government. It was recognized by the People's Republic of China and the Soviet Union in 1950. In 1954, after the defeat of France by the Việt Minh at the Battle of Ðiện Biên Phủ and as a result of the Geneva Conference, France began negotiating with the Việt Minh and Việtnam was partitioned by the Demilitarized Zone (or DMZ at the 17th parallel). France turned over power in the northern half of Vietnam to the Việt Minh who then established the DRVN as a true government. Under the Geneva Accord national elections were supposed to be held in both parts of Việtnam in 1956, with the view of unifying the nation. For the transition North Việtnam was established as a socialist state, the first in Southeast Asia. South Việtnam was established in the southern part of the country with its capital at Sàigòn.
Following the partition of the country, there followed a mass exodus of North Vietnamese to the South, many of them Catholics that claimed they were persecuted by official North Vietnamese policy. This amounted to one million people out of a population of 13 million.[1] Around the same time an estimated 100,000 people fled South Việtnam for the North. The nation in its first years, with an underdeveloped industrial economy and cut off from the agricultural areas of the South, become repressive and totalitarian. Between 1953 and 1956, agrarian reforms were attempted due to Chinese pressure. In the process, tens of thousands of landowners were publicly denounced as landlords (địa chủ), with their land distributed to those considered loyal to the party. Estimates of landlord deaths vary from around 1,000 to tens of thousands, with some sources indicating up to 100,000. [2] A literary movement called Nhân văn - Giai phẩm (from the names of the two magazines which started the movement) attempted to encourage the democratization of the country and the free expression of thought. This resulted in a purge in which many intellectuals and writers were sent to reeducation camps because they did not agree with the government.

North Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

north and south vietnam were different things too.. enigma where do you get your history from?

Luke · #60 (**permalink**) 03-02-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by metalted

luke i think it is not a good thing that either of us demonize each other. although I may have some concerns with your leadership as you may have of mine. i believe it is in our mutual self interest to act with mutual friendship. the back in forth, you did this you did that will increase a sense of paranoia and may in the long term bring us closer to a needless pointless conflict. i am not sure if there is anyway to stop this distrust but I believe it is self perpetuating, and not really based on much..

but i will say for you information, northkorea invaded south korea, the UN lead by the USA backed south korea. and china backed the aggressor NK.

I fully agree with your above statements. Frankly speaking, America is a very successful country. There are a lot for China to learn from America. Most Chinese people admire American achievements in all fields. Due to all the huge differences in the history and culture between the two countries, it is very very challenging to build trust between China and America. Whoever can do this shall get a Nobel Prize.

About Korea War, I agree that NK invaded SK and America conquered NK. At that time, Russia did not want to interfere, neither did China who is only 2 years after the civil war and desperately poor. China's interference is after MacAthur's arrogant bombings across NK-China border.

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