I feel the same way as you do about PT, but the main problem with cars in the inner cities is all the space they take up in there (space pollution you might say), and that aint fair to the rest of the people. We are so used to cars that we dont even think about it anymore, but seriously, transportation units for one or two persons that are 4-5 meters long and 1,8-2 meters wide is completely ludicrous in a very dense area. Motorcycles and other 2 wheelers are okay where cars are not for the very same reason IMHO.

__________________

It all comes down to this on election day: Are you a racist, or do you look down on spastics?

The first subway system was built a long time before the car ever existed Gort.

And when the first towns were built in Europe, for some of them going back a couple of thousands years ago, space was not an issue; on the other hand, the fact that 99% of the people were only using their feet to go to one place to another was. Therefore the towns were compact.

My last point is that you are only at the "mercy" of a PT system, if it is badly conceived. And you need a well conceived PT system not be at the mercy of the car.

__________________
______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Sucre you are always at the mercy of the schedule of the PT system even if it is well concieved. You are also at the mercy of the unions which most of the employees belong to. You seem to be under the impression I am against the development of a PT system, and that is not the case. I just prefer not to have to rely on it myself is all. As far as being at the nercy of the car I am not sure what you mean. It is an object that only I control. I put the key in it and it takes me where I direct it to take me, either by the fastest route or by the most scenic route whichever I am in the mood for. I am not reliant on when it decides it will run, it always runs when I want it to nor am I at the mercy of some operator and city that can't seem to get their respective idea of a good wage or benefit package in sync with each other.

__________________

The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

Within a city, thats not really the case. I have not a single timetable in my head in Vienna. Except for the train home to my village in the deep province.

You dont need to have timetables in your head if every bus, tram and subway goes every 3-10 minutes, the subway normally every 3-6 min. Only in the very periphery this might be not the case for buses. From 1 am to 5 am the night line buses go every half an hour. Show me a car where I could drive home alone after a longer party with alcohol. (After 2-3 beer you can say already good bye to your driving license if you are caught, and if one is not caught he still is an asshole to drive drunk). PT makes people free in the night. I am not at the mercy of a driver anymore, nor do I have to spend a fortune for those overpriced taxis who want a small fortune in the night.

You control your car btw, but not the traffic. And I would be more than astonished to hear that clogged streets or rush hour are things that are totally unknown in the US. And then there is the the factor security, Americans are so sensitive about. PT is considerably safer to ride than a car to drive. And perhaps in the US you have everywhere more than sufficient parking lots, but here its a pain in the ass to find an affordable one in at least half of the city.

PS:
Are 409€ really that expensive? Thats what it costs to have a ticket for 365 days 24 hours a day that permits you to use every public means of transport that exists within the city limits of Vienna. If you do not use the PT regularly there are month/week tickets etc.
Show me how a car can compete with that within a city.

PPS:
Have you seen my respond to you on the page 5?

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

I agree 100% and this is one of the major points. The 33% of people in Vienna who use their car to get around could easily use a bike instead, especially when you consider how flat most of the city is. Imagine all the bikelanes that could be build where the parking lanes are now.

__________________

It all comes down to this on election day: Are you a racist, or do you look down on spastics?

I don't like driving car and never know whether I will be stuck in a traffic jam, need to find a parking lot ... This is what I meanwith being at the "mercy" of the car.

We shouldn't overdo it : trade unions do not strike that often (In Berlin, the last time must have been 15 years ) and if the bus comes every ten minutes and on time (that is what I mean by well conceived), there is no problem with the time.

I work 15 - 20 minutes from home - same district in Berlin Charlottenburg - My office is right in the city center. It is cheaper but also a lot faster for me to go by bus than to take the car.

__________________
______________________Own only what you can always carry with you: know languages, know countries, know people. Let your memory be your travel bag.”___________________Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Ehem... i dont think you are fully aware of the Viennese geography. Vienna is not flat, not really.

Well, I might live also in the wrong corner, but I drive at least 50 meter upwards from one seat of my university to the other one. Thats not exactly nothing by bike.

Sometimes I bike to the Kahlenberg as well. Thats something between 250 and 200 meters height difference. And perhaps 10 km distance.

You have to aware that principally the whole west of Vienna lies on the slopes of the Vienna woods that are the most eastern hill chain that still belongs to the alps and marks their end. A quite large part of the dense city area is far away from being plain.

Bikes have potential in Vienna nonetheless, but no way to bring the car share below 20%. After all, you have to consider the periphery regions as well. And some people simply need their cars.

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

I don't agree if its within the large beltway (ring road) that surrounds the inner city (see map). There are plenty of broad boulevards suitable for cars within that area (all in a walking distance from each other) to where large parking garages could be connected directly.

__________________

It all comes down to this on election day: Are you a racist, or do you look down on spastics?

A stupid idea, lumping all the European cities together for one poll. I had to vote no. It should naturally be the choice of the people of each individual city. Generally, I think it would be a terrible idea. Some car free streets are all right, but every street? Nuts!

__________________
President Josiah Bartlet: Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
Leo McGarry: Maybe they don't and they can't add.

It had to be phrased as a general question for the poll, and the poll seems to be very much in favor of this idea.

I agree that a car ban should be left to the people of each city to decide in a public voting, after that local politicians have decided what areas of the city that can be made car free.

__________________

It all comes down to this on election day: Are you a racist, or do you look down on spastics?

The decision of which areas should be car free should not under any circumstances be left to politicians alone.

City planners would need to be hired to determine the effects on traffic, congestion, the local economy, tourism, and the ability for emergency services to still have access everywhere so that the politicians could actually put out some informed proposals rather than some B.S. that does nothing more than look good to their constituents.

I agree.

One point is however to be considered. Back then when the large pedestrianisation wave swept over Vienna, of course the effected people were asked and studies were made.

Fact is however, that the shop owners at those affected streets strongly opposed the project. If the politicians had given in to their resistance many great parts of Vienna might be instead traffic hells today.

The pedestrian zones were forced somewhat on the shop owners, at least the first ones. Otherwise the project would have never taken off. As the fear to loose all customers due to the strictly reduced reachability by car in those streets was far to large. You have to consider that people still believed that "car friendliness" is what a city should be changed accordingly.

And what happened? Well, today the shop owners would barricade their streets if anyone would dare to touch "their" pedestrian zone. It was a huge success and no one, really no one misses the better street layout for cars from times before the pedestrianization.

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

I am not aware of a single day when the PT system was halted due to a strike in Vienna. I can however remind a few days in history when it was forbidden to take the car.

And I think you are the victim of an illusion. Just because you drive your car yourself does not mean you control the streets you need to get anywhere. And in many cities taking the PT enables you to be far more often "on time" than you would be able to be by car.

WRT "when it runs". We had that point already. When the subway, tram or bus leaves every 3-10 minutes I am as flexible as well. At least as long you dont feel like dying when you once have to wait for lets say 7 terrible long minutes...

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

In the inner cities of most larger European cities using a car often clearly is a pain in the ass. Lots of traffic and lack of parking space don't make it fun. Not to say that using public transport always is very enjoyable. It depends if you travel outside the big cities of course. With a car you are certainly more flexible than with public transport. I usually take the tram when I go downtown but the car when I go somewhere else.

What's scary is that with all those "no frills" airlines, today it's often cheaper to take the plane than to go by car or train, even on comparatively short distances.