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  #166 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2007
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MilleVanille MilleVanille is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

AdrienXII, lets not forget that more Frenches died fighting for Nazi Germany, than against it.

Frenches were the fascist nations just as Germans, Albanians, Italians, Japanese, etc.
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  #167 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2007
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Fennica Fennica is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by oleg View Post
Really? It was shock for them? How could it have been, if "the others" already made treaty with Hitler 1 year in advance in Munich? Germans and Soviets ONLY needed time? Germans and Soviets ONLY welcomed the treaty? What the hell Chamberlein was delightfully flourishing his patch of paper above his head for? He didn't look sad, you know.
Jep, I remember that pic. Poor Chamberlain actually thought that paper in his hand meant something. Western Allies sold out smaller nations then in order to prep for war. Shock-part was that Soviet Union and Nazi-Germany, two ideologies coming head to head suddenly sign a treaty. Westerners did not expect that and realized then that Germany will assault them first, not the Soviet Union.
What does Russian history say about the beginnings of Barbarosa? Is there any refrences about Soviet formations?

Quote:
My post adressed to Adrien has connection to yours. People in the West tend to forget events before shootong war, right, but only the events which are bounded on their own shitty actions in the past. The events connected to the past of the current today's stubborn opponent Russia are polished and shine like the Bethlehem Star.
Yet, many Russians also tend to be unaware of many events which took place right before the official beginning of WW2.
Predjudices born long ago are still remembered, both sides are guilty to that.
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  #168 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2007
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Fennica Fennica is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilleVanille View Post
So Germany that attacked France, Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc, and than attacked Russia (which was the greatest attack in the world ever), and killed over 16 millions of Russian citizens, and plus 6 millions of Jews is the same and equal thing as Russia whose guilt was that is was protecting itself from glorious civilized european Germans.

Well, well...

You are just fascist.
For crying out loud..
Do you leave out your nations doings because you;
¤ Do not know about them?
¤ You want to forget about them?
¤ You feel that they are unimportant?

Germans attacked, so did you. Germans killed civilians, so did you. Germans did untold horrific deeds, so did you.
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  #169 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2007
oleg oleg is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fennica View Post
What does Russian history say about the beginnings of Barbarosa? Is there any refrences about Soviet formations?
Different from the accustomed opinion in the West, Russian modern history offers the enormous number of versions and speculative theories. I can hardly take some for the general official guideline and say it is what we call our history. The huge mount of Cold War fabrications which had been distorting the history deliberately for so long can not be swept away at once. I'd recommend you to read diaries and letters of real living men on all sides of that time period. That show you the edge of real events and mental considerations, feelings and passions, quite unlike to the biased Soviet and Holliwood stories.
The German artillery was unfolding on the border on river-Bug and the Wehrmacht officers with binoculars were wondering as the small Soviet border-harrisons were seen careless playing volleyball and there were no traces of preparations for defense of counter-assault. As the first bombs were already falling onto the sleeping Kiev and other cities, the Soviet trains with food and other supplies crossed the border westward, as we and Germany had allied trade.
The German soldiers which had been delivered to the Western border of USSR believed they were going through the territory of friendly USSR to Iran, to fight British there.
Well, I'd say, we mustn't allow anyone to teach us history, especially embed the comments into the children. To my mind people should properly study psycology before get down to history.
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  #170 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2007
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MilleVanille MilleVanille is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

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Remember Poland? When Stalin and Hitler were allies? The good old times?
What's wrong with Poland? Or maybe Russia attacked Poland, killing its citizens? Nope, that was just an annexation.

Just like the annexation of Czechoslovakia by Poland and Germany some time before.
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  #171 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2007
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pramjockey pramjockey is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

So Russia's actions are as acceptable as the Nazis'?
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  #172 (permalink)  
Old 09-20-2007
AdrienXII AdrienXII is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by oleg View Post
I don't doubt about your book. In this book every war of France was defensive or preventive defense war. I don't criticize that. My question is why Russians or Germans will take responsibility and recognize themselves aggressors in all wars, while all other will have roles of innocent judges and the books like yours?
Read any French history books? It's obvious you haven't, or you wouldn't be making these silly accusations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oleg View Post
This example was very demonstrative. Sure, you remember the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact between Germany and USSR, but you prefer don't remember the pact of Pilsudski-Hitler and grabbing of Chechoslovakian lands by Poland in 1938 after the Munich treaty, which was itself the pact between Germany, Britain, France and Italy about "new borders" of Chechoslovakia. Nor you remember the Versaille, which was itself worse then aggression, cause namely the intention to humiliate Germans was the ticking clock-trigger for WW2 in Europe.
Unfounded speculation. The intent of the Versailles treaty never was to humiliate. It was intended to break the ability of Germany to invade France again. Now, you can argue whether it was wise or not, just spare us the bullshit, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oleg View Post
In fact you remember the events suitable for the current EU members and Atlantic Alliance. The more dirt you dig about USSR and the more shit you successfully forget about EU countries, the stronger moral position EU has before today's Russia. France was fascist country in the early 1940-s, French voluntary legion participated in einsatz-operations in the occupied USSR. Actually, but for the small bunch of French proud ultra-patriots who fought on their fighters ("Normandia-Neman") against Nazis hand to hand with us and whose national pride was stronger then fragrance of the continental Nazism, the future post-war status of France could have been most likely something else as "victor-country". The post-war construction of Europe with France-victor was necessary for political intrigues of new bipolar world. Friendly France was needed to Americans, already desperately fighting communism in Italy, USSR hoped to haul France to it's side. Only because of it the triumphing collaborationism was stuck under the carpet, and you today insolently poke us with the "dirty past of bad USSR".
Sorry, mate, I don't think I have. Don't try to turn the tables on me man, you tried to claim that Russia was never the aggressor, which is plainly false. I never wrote a similarly biased statement about France, and I won't. You are the revisionist, not me.

You don't know me. Stop pretending you do, Oleg, it's annoying.
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  #173 (permalink)  
Old 09-20-2007
AdrienXII AdrienXII is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilleVanille View Post
AdrienXII, lets not forget that more Frenches died fighting for Nazi Germany, than against it.
This a false, by a wide margin. In fact, by an order of magnitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilleVanille View Post
Frenches were the fascist nations just as Germans, Albanians, Italians, Japanese, etc.
Well, you could try to make a case for it, certainly. But you haven't, yet.
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  #174 (permalink)  
Old 09-20-2007
AdrienXII AdrienXII is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Oh, yeah, wrt Napoleon. Russia joined the Second Coalition in 1798, and initiated hostilities against France. That makes Russia the aggressor, in my book, not France.
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  #175 (permalink)  
Old 09-20-2007
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MilleVanille MilleVanille is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrienXII View Post
Oh, yeah, wrt Napoleon. Russia joined the Second Coalition in 1798, and initiated hostilities against France. That makes Russia the aggressor, in my book, not France.
So Russia that fought against French aggression was an aggressor? Pretty well...

You can manipulate with opinions, but you can't resist the facts.

Aggression of France was aggression against Russia.
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  #176 (permalink)  
Old 09-20-2007
AdrienXII AdrienXII is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilleVanille View Post
So Russia that fought against French aggression was an aggressor? Pretty well...

You can manipulate with opinions, but you can't resist the facts.

Aggression of France was aggression against Russia.
Whatever, France was spreading democracy and freedom, and freeing populations from their ignoble tyrants...
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  #177 (permalink)  
Old 09-20-2007
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MilleVanille MilleVanille is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Whatever, France was spreading democracy and freedom, and freeing populations from their ignoble tyrants...
Ha-ha! So that's how you taught in schools and colleges...

Reality is that France was spreading its Empire and tried to gain absolute control over the continent and nothing more.
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  #178 (permalink)  
Old 09-20-2007
AdrienXII AdrienXII is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilleVanille View Post
Ha-ha! So that's how you taught in schools and colleges...

Reality is that France was spreading its Empire and tried to gain absolute control over the continent and nothing more.
Hell, no. The monarchists were afraid the Revolution would spread to their countries and threatened to invade. Are you a royalist? The Czars were the worst kind of oppressors...
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  #179 (permalink)  
Old 09-20-2007
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MilleVanille MilleVanille is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Hell, no. The monarchists were afraid the Revolution would spread to their countries and threatened to invade. Are you a royalist? The Czars were the worst kind of oppressors...
Ha-ha... Revolution? French Revolution was over long time ago, Napoleon was an emperor and dictator.
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  #180 (permalink)  
Old 09-20-2007
AdrienXII AdrienXII is offline
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Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilleVanille View Post
Ha-ha... Revolution? French Revolution was over long time ago, Napoleon was an emperor and dictator.
So he was. It's still true that France had no choice but to fight. Were his opponents any better? If anything, they were worse.
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