Visit the U.S. Politics Online Discussion Forum Archives!

Sponsored by:

U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum  

Bookmark Us! E-Mail DONATE NOW! Photo Gallery Document Archives Quiz! Register to Vote!!!
Go Back   U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum > Political Arenas > International Politics

International Politics A forum to discuss international politics

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #346 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007
pramjockey's Avatar
pramjockey pramjockey is offline
OMG!
Scruffy-looking nerf herder

 
Member Since: Feb 2006
Location: Morrison, CO
Posts: 14,200

Scotland     Colorado

Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilleVanille View Post
It is criminal behavior. It is just like to sell weapons to the maniac when you know that he kills people.
Like selling weapons to Putin's government?
__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears
Reply With Quote
  #347 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007
jaro jaro is offline
City Council Member

 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 147

Slovakia    
Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilleVanille View Post
Soviet Union traded with Germany BEFORE the War, while Sweden DURING the war, providing Germany with over 80% of its metal for weapons.
The war started by invasion of Poland. At that point, Soviet union still traded with Germany and provided it with oil. It continued to trade with it even when France was invaded, and only stopped once it was attacked. But I understand, the war for Russians began only when Soviet union was attacked
__________________
No loyalty towards the EU.

Ignore list: Stapo, Thorvald
Reply With Quote
  #348 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007
oleg oleg is offline
U.S. Senator

 
Member Since: Apr 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 768

   
Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon View Post
Today we have hindsight, we know what happened in Germany at the time, and when extermination of people began. Contemporary leaders didn't have that knowledge.
The same excuse can be applied to Germans, who fought on the frontline and have never seen the einzatzgruppen' massacres till the moment of retreat and journey through the ashes and rotten bodies. And to the German civilians who have never seen KZ in their cozy Bavaria.
Quote:
What was known at the time was that jews where persecuted, what was known was that Hitler wanted them gone, one way or the other, as he wanted other groups gone, and it was known what dreams he had of Lebensraum in the East. Present day Poland was already under nazi rule, a future part of the Lebensraum.

Soviet and swedish leaders had basically the same knowledge about Germany, and both countries traded with Germany, as did the US. Trade only stopped when war was declared.

So the Soviet Union can't take any moral credit, they did what they could, they didn't do what they should.
Well, all this enough reasonable, but one catch. Sweden supported Nazis till the end, following it's national interests and making business. Considering the lack of information about disgusting deliberate crimes against humanity, let's say it was relevant. Sweden chose that side in the game and safely enjoyed as beneficiary of the war business. Why Germany was scapegoated as incredible criminal nation, and lost everything, while Sweden saved all benefits of war? If Reich had won, USSR, the US and Brits would have lost their economical assets, human lives and so on. But such marauder nations as Sweden always only win in all wars. In another word, for Sweden every war is good, reliable safe mechanism to enrich oneself. The bigger, the better. Which, in turn, lifts up the question about real initiative role of so-called "neutral" European countries in Hitler's global advanturism.
Reply With Quote
  #349 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007
laca laca is offline
U.S. House Representative

 
Member Since: Sep 2006
Location: china
Posts: 601

Hong     China

Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

What mistake they made in they vanity. They thought that demolition of Berlin war was the end of USSR and the beginning of new world order ever lasted new Roman or Anglo - Western Empire.
But actually it was the beginning of Russia and China and the end of world Anglo dominance. The new world order started but not as they thought so.
And why they mist it. Usual story Arrogance, arrogance and arrogance. To behave yourself when you are powerful you need to be matured and with plenty of real culture.
Rational western Anglo training is not enough.
Reply With Quote
  #350 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007
MilleVanille's Avatar
MilleVanille MilleVanille is offline
Speaker of the House

 
Member Since: Jul 2006
Location: Russia
Posts: 825

Russian    
Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramjockey View Post
Like selling weapons to Putin's government?
First off all, Russia don't buys weapons at all, because it produces all kinds of weapons itself. It sells it around the world.

Quote:
The war started by invasion of Poland. At that point, Soviet union still traded with Germany and provided it with oil. It continued to trade with it even when France was invaded, and only stopped once it was attacked. But I understand, the war for Russians began only when Soviet union was attacked
It wasn't war actually, more like annexations. Of Austria, Czechoslovakia, France, Poland, etc. There were NO significant resistance to this annexations from annexed countries.
Reply With Quote
  #351 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007
Imperator's Avatar
Imperator Imperator is offline
Moderator
Audiatur et altera pars!

 
Member Since: Sep 2006
Location: San Jose, Ca
Posts: 13,647

United_States    
Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

uhm france and poland were annexations??....wow, I'll let french and poles know they can re-write thier history books.
__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor
Reply With Quote
  #352 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007
MilleVanille's Avatar
MilleVanille MilleVanille is offline
Speaker of the House

 
Member Since: Jul 2006
Location: Russia
Posts: 825

Russian    
Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
uhm france and poland were annexations??....wow, I'll let french and poles know they can re-write thier history books
The real facts is that resistance was very weak. After occupation there were no partizan's movement in those countries. The level of collaboration was very high. Not like in Belorussia, Eastern and Central Ukraine, and the main Russia, where were very big partizan movements.
Reply With Quote
  #353 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007
Imperator's Avatar
Imperator Imperator is offline
Moderator
Audiatur et altera pars!

 
Member Since: Sep 2006
Location: San Jose, Ca
Posts: 13,647

United_States    
Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

So the collaboration was very high?...that doesn't change the previous hostilities and the military conquest of the countries in question, you are trying to shoe horn a view that is not accurate. I think you should examine the definition of the term “annex” etc....
__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor
Reply With Quote
  #354 (permalink)  
Old 12-26-2007
Gideon's Avatar
Gideon Gideon is offline
City Council Member

 
Member Since: Nov 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 145

European_Union    
Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by oleg View Post
The same excuse can be applied to Germans, who fought on the frontline and have never seen the einzatzgruppen' massacres till the moment of retreat and journey through the ashes and rotten bodies. And to the German civilians who have never seen KZ in their cozy Bavaria.
It's not an excuse, it's an explanation, and it explains why the Soviet Union traded with Germany, just like Sweden did.

If you're a soldier, at least you can surrender to the enemy and be out of the war that way, and many russian soldiers wisely choose this option.
Reply With Quote
  #355 (permalink)  
Old 12-26-2007
Gideon's Avatar
Gideon Gideon is offline
City Council Member

 
Member Since: Nov 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 145

European_Union    
Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilleVanille View Post
Soviet Union traded with Germany BEFORE the War...
The war started september 1939, when the Soviet Union and Germany invaded Poland. You can't seriously expect anyone to accept that the war started only first when your country was invaded.
Reply With Quote
  #356 (permalink)  
Old 12-26-2007
MilleVanille's Avatar
MilleVanille MilleVanille is offline
Speaker of the House

 
Member Since: Jul 2006
Location: Russia
Posts: 825

Russian    
Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
If you're a soldier, at least you can surrender to the enemy and be out of the war that way, and many russian soldiers wisely choose this option.
Most of them were killed by Germans.

Quote:
The war started september 1939, when the Soviet Union and Germany invaded Poland. You can't seriously expect anyone to accept that the war started only first when your country was invaded.
The war starts not when historians tell this, but when military actions begin.
Reply With Quote
  #357 (permalink)  
Old 12-26-2007
Gideon's Avatar
Gideon Gideon is offline
City Council Member

 
Member Since: Nov 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 145

European_Union    
Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilleVanille View Post
The war starts not when historians tell this, but when military actions begin.
OK. You're agreeing with me then?
Reply With Quote
  #358 (permalink)  
Old 12-26-2007
oleg oleg is offline
U.S. Senator

 
Member Since: Apr 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 768

   
Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon View Post

If you're a soldier, at least you can surrender to the enemy and be out of the war that way, and many russian soldiers wisely choose this option.
As we see, some countries have only this one option. Very wise, safe and profitable. If to collaborate with Gestapo this even to be called not a pityful "surrender", but proud "neutrality".
As for Russian soldiers - they didn't surrender but were taken POW on the battlefield. Like Germans in the mousetrap of Stalingrad. And they never were out of war, they were gradually terminated in KZs, many escaped and rejoined the army or guerillas.
If your house is burnt, wife and children murdered, whether you are soldier or not - you can not be out of the war. You are the war. It is not question of wisdom. It's question of balls.
I understand it's difficult to understand if you are Swedish. Last time when soldiers lived in Sweden was 300 years ago. Therefore you simply don't know anyone among your kin to experience anything like that. I only hope, that those who tracked and hunted "politically-incorrect" Norvegians to surrender them to Gestapo were not among your ancestors or teachers.
Reply With Quote
  #359 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2007
Gideon's Avatar
Gideon Gideon is offline
City Council Member

 
Member Since: Nov 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 145

European_Union    
Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

I'm not saying the Soviet Union should have surrendered when attacked, I'm just saying they didn't take hostile action against Germany until forced by Germany to do so. Just like Sweden didn't.

I'm not saying the Soviet Union didn't fight the nazis, because it did, but only when in it absolutely had to and not a second sooner. Just like Sweden.


The last war Sweden had was with Russia, it ended september 17th 1809. So it's not even 200 years of peace!
Reply With Quote
  #360 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2007
oleg oleg is offline
U.S. Senator

 
Member Since: Apr 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 768

   
Re: Russia - „The Third Empire“

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon View Post


The last war Sweden had was with Russia, it ended september 17th 1809. So it's not even 200 years of peace!
ОК))))))))
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC6
Copyright © 2000 - 2008 U.S. Politics Online