Mille,
Where did you get your numbers?

__________________
There can be no bystanders in the battle for survival. Anyone who will not fight by your side is an enemy you must crush.

We are at war with forces too terrible to comprehend. We cannot afford mercy for any of its victims too weak to take the correct course. Mercy destroys us; it weakens us and saps our resolve. Put aside all such thoughts. They are not worthy of those in the service of country.

[quote]Well, I am no great fan of the world bank, but accusing them of using fake data is a bit extreme.

Nominal GDP? That includes inflation, and so is worthless for comparative analysis. A 2 trillion figure for PPR? Where are you getting that?

Yes, certainly Russia is experiencing very strong growth. That is a good sign.

Well, on the issue of prognostication, I would agree with you: but we are not talking about advance estimates, but data for recent years.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

I think MV is trying to include the money made from identity theft and intellectual property theft. Those really seem to be the only products Russia has, except maybe for mediocre vodka.

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

Not true and not fair. Oil alone is bringing in a great deal of revenue. And Russia is very rich in natural resources. They also have a highly trained and well-educated work force, especially in science and technology.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

and I would be ok with that. Though, I would much rather make my enemy die for his.

You raise some very good points. However, I don't see a unified response from Europe; either for or against becoming involved. I would expect Finland, and possibly Sweden, to get involved. If not with military participation, then with logistical support.

You are correct though. Without an immediate military response from a major European power (UK?) Russian victory would be a foregone conclusion. Anything less would simply be a speed-bump. Even then, that immediate military response would more than likely be a delaying action until large US forces arrive.

__________________
There can be no bystanders in the battle for survival. Anyone who will not fight by your side is an enemy you must crush.

We are at war with forces too terrible to comprehend. We cannot afford mercy for any of its victims too weak to take the correct course. Mercy destroys us; it weakens us and saps our resolve. Put aside all such thoughts. They are not worthy of those in the service of country.

[quote]Well, I would tend to agree with you: but I think it would be difficult to convince many American families of that.

I think you might be right on the logistical support. Of course, Finland might be putting themselves in a desperate position if they helped out: they barely escaped Soviet occupation. They do have a very impressive history of defending themselves.

As for Sweden.....is there anything they would fight for? They are the distilled essence of neutrality.

I think Europe will probably remain neutral - although I still have hopes that something remains of honor and bravery.

That would mean a war without end. Russia is enormous and has an endless supply of resources. All of our firepower would be worthless.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

The nations of the EU would never let it happen. plus if Russia were to mobilize its troops it would lead to an arms race that Russia cannot win.

defense spending of EU: €213 billion
defense spending of russia: €23,8 billion

[quote]What does that mean? How would they stop it?

An arms race? The invasion of the Baltic states would happen so quickly, the arms race would be irrelevant. Once the troops are in Vilnius and Riga, we are talking about old-fashioned combat.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

We would have air domination in a matter of days.

It would be old-fashioned commie butt kicking - hollywood movie style

Me too man. I am a bit of an optimist as far as this is concerned. I feel Europe would suprise us.

In such a scenario the US government would have to sell the concept of total war to the American people, and on a scale not seen since WW2. Probably to an even greater extent. Since Russia would undoubtedly go to the same footing, anything less from us would mean defeat. 10 years ago I would have said that wouldn't be much of a problem. Now, it is totally different ball game. It is not that we are militarily incapable, but I don't think the American people are mentally prepared for what would be needed, let alone willing to go to those lengths.

__________________
There can be no bystanders in the battle for survival. Anyone who will not fight by your side is an enemy you must crush.

We are at war with forces too terrible to comprehend. We cannot afford mercy for any of its victims too weak to take the correct course. Mercy destroys us; it weakens us and saps our resolve. Put aside all such thoughts. They are not worthy of those in the service of country.

[quote]Air domination? Are you telling me that the EU air force would engage in an air battle with Russia?! How would that be received by the population and the media, which are overwhelmingly pacifist?


What a funny, funny man you are.....

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

pff our afghan soldiers dont dare wipe their asses without air support. I think you'll see that pacifist mentality changing pretty quickly in the case of an invasion.

Besides what would be pacifist in creating extra victims by engaging in man-to-man combat? with air domination the russian army would be immobilized and brought to its knees quickly.

[quote]We can always hope.

Agreed in full.

I really do believe we are heading for a new isolationism. I don't think it will be the result of a conscious policy change, but will be a response to public disgust with Iraq, public disgust and weariness with anti-Americanism and a new urgency regarding domestic issues.

Also, I believe the great gulf between the US and Europe would make it impossible. The anti-Americanism that is so rampant now would explode on a scale that we have not seen before if Americans came to the aid of any nation that is the target of a military attack. Demonstrations against Americans in countries only a few miles from the scene of the conflict would be devastating for morale.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

[quote]Well, you make an interesting point. I just don't see Europeans moving away from pacifism (especially Germans). But as a European you would know better than I would.

(I assume you mean this as a serious comment - not sarcasm.)

I don't know about that one. The Russian army always surprises its opponents. No air battle, however impressive, could stop the army from occupying at least Estonia.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

Tim I dont think youre right. There is support from most governements and the population for the war in afghanistan which is considered an american war. We would be happy to recieve and give any aid when the cause is just.