Alright, I'm probably going to post quite a bit in this thread. So, to not overload anyone with a bunch of massive posts, I guess I'll just break things down into bite-sized portions.

I intend to be more specific later on, but for now, I'm just going to talk about the general Western 'non-American' (Canada, Western Europe, etc.). Please forgive me for the massive generalizations I'm about to make. I guess I should preface it with the usual "there are plenty of exceptions to what I'm about to say and I wish I didn't have to make the follow blanket statements".

When reading through the "Your Views On Americans" thread, it made me feel very, very similar to the non-Americans posting there. Why? Because the problems you guys have with Americans generally seem to be the same problems I have with you guys, and that made me realize we're just humans and we all have problems with the 'other guy'. For example:

I can't stand the ignorant non-American, just as you guys can't stand the ignorant American. A lot of times on this site, I am convinced that America is shrouded in as much myth as it was 200 years ago. Accept, while the myth was 'the streets are paved in gold' centuries ago, they've now turned into 'You will be destroyed if you're non-religious and the streets are paved in bullet shells and empty Big Mac wrappers.' A lot of these misconceptions of Americans could easily be cleared up with 2 minutes of research, but it seems as if this research isn't done because people want to believe them. Almost like a reinforced ignorance.

I can't stand the intolerance of non-Americans, just as you guys can't stand the intolerance of Americans. You guys are quite intolerant, just of different things. Just like in the US, things that go against the status quo in non-America land are often ridiculed and insulted. Religion is a fine example. I'm not, nor ever have been a religious person, but I feel that my treatment of religious people far exceeds the treatment from a lot of non-Americans. It's not uncommon for non-Americans to call religious people 'crazy' or dumb or brainwashed on this forum. Sure, I don't believe in it myself, but I at least respect religious people's decisions and beliefs. Maybe if you guys weren't such assholes to people that don't completely confirm to your 'enlightened' countries, we'd have less of 'em over here.

I can't stand the arrogance of non-Americans, just as you guys can't stand the arrogance of Americans. I always find it entertaining when a non-American gets all pissy over an American claiming they're the best, then proceed to pull out a laundry list of cherry picked facts showing how their country is way better. Correcting the inaccuracy of an incorrect American is just fine, I encourage it, but to complain about the American being arrogant when you're being just as arrogant is a bit ridiculous.

Those are just a few of the negatives that popped into my mind. On the plus side, I must say, I find the majority of non-Americans on this site to be very cool people. I originally chose to take part in this forum due to it's large non-American user base and I do not regret that decision at all. I consider a lot of you as friends, and excellent representatives of your countries.

To be continued...

__________________
“Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people.” -Dr. Carl Sagan

All I can say from personal experience is Mexicans have treated me like an honored guest both times I have been there - they love to show you their cultures and food.
Germans depend on if you are related to them, or friends of a relative etc. I was treated well there - but my family came from there, however when my brother was in the Army he was confronted with keine Amerikaner signs in bars and such on a regular basis, indeed when I was in Bamberg I saw one myself, course Bamberg has a US military base.

ya the germans dont like US Army folks period was only there about 4 or 5 times and it was fly throughs with layovers which gave me time to get some fricken brew and brats

and always some asshole german was there to crush my fun.......I think that is a point that is not being hit in both of these threads


"perception is reality" was a big "clintonism" during the 90's army and the PC'ing of the army under the clinon admin

by that it was inferred that someones perception is their reality thus something to be concerned within PC terms

in this situation i think its someones lifes experiences that effects their opinion of the world, or america

i have met some good people but much of my travels all over the world i was a soldier thus i got the UGLY (insert country) person all the time regardless if I was in a occupation status or just flying through other than Ireland who actually treated me better than Maine did when i flew back to america after afghanistan most countries i recieved bullshit , stares, and fucked up comments

hell in egypt they gaurded our plane..........not from attacks from terrorists but from us leaving the plane period (they faced the plane) as we refueled.......

thus I am sure some "ugly americans" do effect "some" non americans opinion of what americans are like and are about

but i still wager the majority in the last 6 years are just the way they are cause it is in fashion to think americans suck

This is not a thread on Americans .

well i am sure you can make it one with some negative spin about americans

Okay, so let me do a round up of the latest posts before I say nighty-night…

Jolly Jihad4Beer says he loves all the various cultures and peoples all over the world, a sentiment echoed by the sweet Si modo - and most definitely shared by yours truly

Si modo adds that she is turned off by generalisations, though, especially those negative stereotyping remarks about Americans. I have to say that such conduct turns me off too, who ever is hurling the insults at whomever, and really it’s beyond belief that those who engage in such puerile antics are adults.

Meanwhile laconic Traveler notes that Australia would be near the top of the list in the alphabetical hit list suggested by Evil_inKarlate…well, yes, that’s true, but this means that you won’t be able to dwell on us too much because there’s a long list to get through!

Now, man-of-the-world Anselme suggests that Sarkozy’s election in France might have soothed Franco-American relations, but that this might just be a temporary cease fire… zut, alors! Just when you thought it was safe to eat French Fries again!

Suave iTaliAN_ICe voices one of my beliefs when he refers to anti-Americanism as a form of prejudice. He graciously notes that most of the non-Americans here do not exhibit this kind of odious behaviour. I don’t know. The thing is, even if a minority do it, then any earnest criticism raised by those of us who don’t hate Americans can be understandably taken the wrong way. .

Rakkasan the Patriot chimes in to decry the antipathy displayed towards those who support Bush and the war…I would agree here that it is wrong to hate people because of their political leanings or their stand on the war, but I think this cuts both ways.

The affable pramjockey lifts my spirits with his wonderful outlook on the nicer attributes of humanity, but I also totally share his reproof of national chauvinism.

And I also share his views of the US.

Scholarly Donkey_Left makes a good point when he comments that the non-Americans with whom he has interacted probably had an internationalist philosophy, like him, which may have coloured his opinion. I do believe, as I mentioned on Speakeasy’s thread, that people need to be predisposed to seeking mutual understanding for any exchanges to lead to better relations.

I agree with young Metalted that pride in heritage is admirable, and that pride does not mean you have to diminish the pride of another people…but I can’t agree with his statement that “people in the west want to destroy intellectually all things that we have to be proud of”; his perspective on liberalism; or that people in Europe take churches and castles and other such relics for granted and even view them as “evil”. None of this is true.

I also make a distinction between national pride or patriotism, and nationalism.

Oh dear…more posts came in while I was writing this round-up. Speakeasy, iamwhatiseem, Rakkasan, Sucre and anyone else that has just posted, I’ll have to get back to this thread tomorrow…it’s almost 1.30 am here in Sydney, and I have a meeting in the morning. Got to get some sleep. Good day and Good night!

Tethys

__________________
-- Harry S. Truman

Whoa, like the round up idea. I should've done that in the other thread...

__________________
“Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people.” -Dr. Carl Sagan

Great post Speakeasy!

I believe I made a similar point in the other Non-Americans thread. That is to say, that which I find most annoying about American posters at this forum is the same things I find most annoying about non-American posters at this forum.

i should clarify, My comments echoe speakeasies. but I am sad to see that europeans look so down on religion because its so part of that regions heritage. Not that everything about it was admireable but I do think with all those men that died fighting for christendom, (its not just the crusades, brave europeans fought and died to stop the spread of islam on the shores of europe, in the continent of france and spain and germany. halted at vienna no less) the roots of our culture I wish that there was more appreciation for it..

I say this as I talk to some muslims, and they say that the western culture is inferior and superficial, and its true now it is.. but this is because we have forgotten about chopin, bach, rembrant, beathoven, michelangelo, Da Vinci.. I dont want to make this into an west is superior to islam or whatever, but you do realise that according to islam portraits of living things is not allowed, and in a strict interpretation music is actually banned as well? the only thing you need to listen to is the koran.. those muslims who do not agree with this are actually contradicting thier religious texts.. I say this only because I think people should have a good appreciation of culture and arts.

I guess I wish we were more cultured I suppose, that goes for all of us europeans and americans. and I think that many attitudes in europe seem to destroy this, and it causes alot of I guess I should say a lack of respect from the islamic world to europe.. and I have a hard time explaining to muslims from arab lands that women can walk around topless in beaches gays can get married we can drink and do drugs and all the stuff they think is hedonistic and sinful.. not that I dont smoke drink curse and all that... but I still find myself having difficulty explaining the merits of our civilization..especially while so many of us seem to forget.

__________________


www.myspace.com/crusade7

I would certainly agree, but I would say there is virtually no chance of anything positive coming from your observations. As a result, many people who might otherwise participate here and provide greater variety and depth would never think of remaining.

Altogether a thoroughly depressing, discouraging thread.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

I dont think that our current culture has much to do with people fighting for christianity. If muslims would have conquered europe 1000 years ago then we would have certainly developed differently but we really cant know if it would have been faster or slower than with christianity. I think the roots of our culture lie in the fight against religious influence in politics. That is what gave us enlightenment, separation of church and state, free speech etc. which lead to many new ideas. Things would have developed slower under religious rule.

Your post was irrelevant and off topic.

And when non-Americans (hence the title of the thread) make sweeping generalizations about Americans, it is a conversation stopper.

Now, could you actually have a point, or would you prefer to reiterate that you you just can't speak with Americans because God is all over America. Maybe you would prefer another generalization? If so, go for it, but expect no genuine exchange of ideas, because that could not be your intent.

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Lest I forget my manners...G'nite, Tethys and sweet dreams.

(BTW, nice adjectives...you're too kind )

__________________
I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

i agree that religion was a force of oppression but it was also a force of enlightenment and art as well that should not be discounted. No offense but american independence was also in large part the inspiration to european enlightenment as you see it, yet we are so much more religious then you. but I think europeans have so much of thier heritage attached to the religion. people should see the good and bad in the past I think.

I dont like our current culture, no one does its superficial its weak and its because of a rejection of everything in the past, but I think there was some good things about the past. people are still traveling from around the world to admire european cathedrals and castles and great works of art. and still our symphonies play music written hundreds of years ago.

if islam conquered europe its a pretty good bet all these things would have been destroyed... churches would have minerets added to them and cathedralls all the great stain glass windows depicting jesus and the saints be destroyed.. music would have been pretty much wiped out. and our period of learning and rebellion against the church would never happened..

because islam is both a state and a religion.. meaning that in thier religious texts islam mandates over everything in life, from the way your greet people, to system of banking, to the way you govern. to rebel against the government of islam, is to commit apostacy which is punishable by death...
I learn this from good pious muslims who wish peace and cooperation with us.... people who believe that the islamic state should punish people who commit crimes against morality and that christians and jews are people of the book to be protected... that governments run by muslims should be judged on how "Islamic they are.' that does not mean they wish to impose islamic law onto us, it just means that that is what many of them believe.

You can not be a good muslim and not approve of islamic law, you can not cherry pick the texts you wish to follow.. according to many muslims.

__________________


www.myspace.com/crusade7

Such ideas came out of Europe by people such as John Locke and Martin Luther, to name a few.

But the USA was the first nation to effectively apply them in top-down model starting with the highest government office.

So I for one, never understand how some people in Europe get off preaching to Americans about secular ideals.

It would be like an American telling the French how to make champaigne, or lol, should I say sparkling wine.

So that is one view of some non-Americans. Suffice it to say, there are ignorant and arrogant people all over the world.

__________________
One day, I will sneak across the border into Canada and be an illegal alien. It will be fun.