I can only talk of Germany of today, well, may be 10-15 years back. My co-workers are taking frequent business travel there and let me tell you..The most ordered, uptight, efficient, polite, may be somewhat psychotic nation out there. How ever, we most agree it to be the best place to live, somehow. Magic attraction it has. I personally understand to full extend current nazi move in Germany and I have posted my point couple of posts above and excuse them for what they have done some 60 years ago. I buy their being sincerely ashamed of the past and do not mind have them as true friends now...free of charge, free of eternal repatriations unlike some other nations.
In essence, what ever had happened then has nothing to do with what is happening now..no correlation, IMO.

Would you care to elaborate on "their present treatment of their Turks"? I think Germany is not treating them badly at all. They get education, housing and health care like everybody else, they came to Germany because they decided to do so and they are free people. There isnt even a large crime problem, this is a problem mainly in the african minorities.

Which of the estimated 21,000,000 victims do you consider 'good points' ?
The 6 million Jews ?
The 10 million Slavs ?
The 1/4 million Gypsies?
The 200K homosexuals ?
The 3 million prisoners of war ?

The communists perhaps ? Or the trade unionists ? The Freemasons ? The Jehova's witnesses maybe ? Or even the 500,000 Germans ?

Denmark was a regional great power throughout the Middle ages. they had their ups and downs, not every Danish king was as successful as Canute the Great who ruled Denmark (including the southern parts of present day Sweden), Norway, and England.

The Kalmar Union was a unification of crowns, but under the lead of the Danes. Through it, they held Sweden for more than a hundred years, and Norway until 1814. Sweden became independent in 1521, but was beaten by Denmark in many wars later in that century.

The United Kingdom considered the Danish fleet so important in the beginning of the Napoleonic wars, that they bombarded Copenhagen to make the Danes give it up. Instead, they turned Denmark into an ally of France.

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President Josiah Bartlet: Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
Leo McGarry: Maybe they don't and they can't add.

And the Danish empire - Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes and a network of forts and trading posts around the world. Don't forget that.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

Some Danes are fond of saying that thanks to Greenland, Denmark is the EU country that has the largest area. They never mention in the same breath that though Greenland joined the EC (as it was called back then) at the same time as Denmark in 1973, it left in 1985. Greenland is actually the prime precedent that says that you can leave the EU, if you want to.

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President Josiah Bartlet: Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
Leo McGarry: Maybe they don't and they can't add.

Thanks. Didn't know that.

None of the above.

Trains running on time is an accomplishment. Saying that running trains on time is pure Nazism (because the Nazis did it) is madness and makes it harder to fight against fascism.

Denying citizenship to 3rd and 4th generation Turks in Germany and thus treating them as second class citizens.

That is essentially, racist. The German definition of German citizenship is essentially racist.

Not much different than many other European nations there.

Apparently being born in Germany to two parents who were born in Germany is still sufficient for one to be denied German citizenship.

I don't deny that Denmark existed, or that it had an army or fleet. And if you have to go back to the 10th century of Viking raiders to find a substantial Danish military success, that just proves my point.

The point that I made was that Denmark wasn't a significant military power sufficient to offensively or credibly threaten the various German states during the 12th to 16th century period.

Btw, allies of France (be they under Louis XIV or Napoleon) are there only so long as they are paid to be there. France always purchased/rented their alliances with gold.

Indeed, Denmark's support of Napoleon didn't help. Napoleon still lost.

Denmark did threaten the northern German states, that is why they were often allied to Sweden.

Denmark also intervened in the Thirty Years War, not only to face imminent defeat - even though they played a significantly smaller part than Sweden.

__________________
President Josiah Bartlet: Sweden has a 100% literacy rate. 100%! How do they do that?
Leo McGarry: Maybe they don't and they can't add.

That's not quite true anymore. Such children usually acquire German citizenship at birth and later can chose between the German and their parents nationality. German citizenship may also be acquired by naturalization by those with permanent residence who have lived in Germany for 8 years. Additional requirements include an adequate command of the German language and an ability to be self-supporting without recourse to welfare.

German Embassy London - Reform of Germany's citizenship and nationality law

German nationality law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Interestingly, it's rather the other way round. Many first Generation Turks didn't want German citizenship and didn't integrate into the German community but rather stayed on their own. For second and third generations the situation is a bit different. But they still suffer from the lack of integration of their parents' generation. They are stuck in the middle between two cultures.

I don't know which aspects of nazism could be good. But I don't see why there wouldn't be any... The question was not, "was nazism, overall, a good idea?" but "was there anything good about Nazi Germany". A rotten apple makes good manure. (ancient chinese proverb. Maybe).

Edit: the whole thing makes me remember a movie - the life of brian. [S]Jesus[/S] Brian being crucidifed, singing, "always look on the bright side of life". There's always a bright side... but in certain situations, it takes a LOT of "good will" to see it.

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Client: In six days, do you hear me, six days, God made the world. And you are not bloody well capable of making me a pair of trousers in three months!
Tailor: But my dear Sir, my dear Sir, look at the world, and look at my trousers.
(Beckett)

Interesting post. When you use the term "magic attraction" - do you mean the employment and education opportunitiies? Culture? Traditions?

I am interested in your comments because I found Germany to be an attractive place to live - much more than I expected.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

First off, how do we know that it's actually true ? Where are the surveys by objective standards executed by non-Nazis that show this 'fact'? In a totalitarian state every bit of information is suspect because it's most likely propaganda.

Secondly, if true, how would on go about to prove that this is an achievement of Nazism and not of German culture in general (cf. the irrelevancy of the contemporariness of Porsche's designing of the VW). After all, the proverbiality of Grundlichkeit of the Germans indicates that punctuality has been highly valued there regardless of the enveloping ideology. If the trains rode on time in the 60's, 70's and so on until today too, then the achievement is German and not Nazi.

Thirdly: so fucking what if it is.
The goal of the extermination of the Jews and the 'purification' of society by physically eliminating all opposition and all that did not conform to the insane racist standards of Nazism were on the books from day one. It's one hell of price to pay to get the trains running on time, since that's an achievement that pretty much any ideology manages more or less.