Holocaust Groups Demand More Compensation from Germany - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

ThorHammer · #1 (**permalink**) 11-07-2007

When will it end? I don't think Germany should have to pay anymore to Holocaust survivors, or their relatives. Hell, Germany has paid over 92 billion dollars already. The Germans of today should not be penalized.

New Wave of Shoah Claims: Holocaust Groups Demand More Compensation from Germany - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

Quote:

Holocaust Groups Demand More Compensation from Germany
By Christoph Schult in Jerusalem

More than 60 years after the Holocaust, survivors and their heirs are filing new claims for compensation against Germany. And the Israeli government wants Berlin to provide additional payments of millions of euros to help pay for social services for survivors.

The old man holds up a black-and-white photograph, yellowed with age. It depicts a young boy sitting on the branch of a tree. He is holding an apple in his hand and smiling at the camera.

The old man is also smiling, revealing, under his wrinkles and his carefully trimmed moustache, the same shy smile as on the face of the boy in the photo. "My childhood was very brief," says the old man. He pauses, takes a deep breath and corrects himself: "Actually, I didn't have a childhood."

Alex Orli, 72, sits in an office in the Israeli city of Rehovot and talks about the winter of 1942/43. He describes how the Germans descended upon the city where he was born, Zhovkva, in present-day Ukraine. He talks about how they killed his father and then his mother, and how a relative smuggled him and his younger sister out of the ghetto and then handed them a piece of paper with an address on it: Kopinskiego Street 33.

Now, 65 years later, Orli knows that he is alive today to tell his story because of the man who opened the door at that address. The man was a devout Catholic. He led the children into a bunker with a ceiling so low that even the seven-year-old Alex was unable to stand upright. Sixteen Jews were already sitting in the room, packed tightly together, including his aunt and uncle.

It was a dangerous situation. Had anyone outside seen the children enter the house? There was a vote. The majority was in favor of handing over the children to the Gestapo. But one Polish man refused.

Alex remembers each word of the sentence that saved his life and that of his sister. "If the children survived the ghetto and made it to this house," said the devout Pole, "then God wants them to stay alive."

Of an estimated 250,000 people alive worldwide who survived the Holocaust as children, about 120,000 now live in Israel. Like Orli, most of these people, known as "children of the Shoah," suppressed their stories for a long time. In the first few years after the war, no one in Israel wanted to hear about what they had gone through. Instead, everyone focused on building the Jewish state.

The survivors also suppressed their fates, started families and embarked on their careers. Only now, with most of them retired, are the memories rising to the surface once again. In many cases, the memories are accompanied by the desire to hold accountable the people who robbed them of their childhood.

Many of the victims received no compensation. Some were orphans whose guardians or adoptive families had no idea that they were entitled to compensation. Others felt it was beneath them to ask for money from the heirs of the perpetrators of the Holocaust. Orli, together with other survivors, has formed an organization called YESH -- Children and Orphans Holocaust Survivors in Israel, which is preparing a lawsuit against Germany. "We want the German government to recognize our suffering," says Orli.

A lot of money is at stake. The representatives of the children of the Shoah are demanding more than the usual compensation. They want their clients to receive an orphan's pension -- "the same as the children of fallen Wehrmacht soldiers," Orli explains. His organization wants every surviving member of the children of the Shoah to be paid €7,200 for each year spent as an orphan. For the 250,000 survivors still alive today, that would come to €1.8 billion per orphaned year. The Holocaust survivors' group also wants the German government to pay for health disorders and the loss of career opportunities.

The children of the Shoah are not the only survivors' rights group filing new claims against Germany. Indeed, the German government is facing a wave of lawsuits and new demands. Some of those filing the current suits were forgotten when the original compensation treaties were drawn up, some were deliberately left out, and others missed the necessary deadlines. Holocaust reparations have become an "endless story," says Constantin Goschler, a German historian and author of the definitive work "Schuld und Schulden. Die Politik der Wiedergutmachung für NS-Verfolgte seit 1945" ("Guilt and Debts. The Politics of Reparations for Nazi Victims since 1945").

The material aspects of the process of dealing with Germany's Nazi past, begun right after the war by then Chancellor Konrad Adenauer and then Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, were originally supposed to have been completed by the late 1960s. After tough negotiations between the Jewish Claims Conference (JCC) and Germany, the German parliament, the Bundestag, ratified the "Final Federal Compensation Law" in 1965, which set a 1969 deadline for the filing of complaints. There was considerable agreement between the parties at the time, so much so that then JCC Chairman Nahum Goldmann called the German law a "harmonious settlement."

He was wrong, as has become clear today. In addition to lawsuits being filed by various victims' groups, the Jewish Claims Conference is back at the negotiating table with the German Finance Ministry. The Israeli government is also calling on Berlin to make additional payments, even though Jerusalem signed a written promise, after the end of the compensation negotiations, that the Jewish state would "file no further claims against the Federal Republic of Germany."

Holocaust survivors today criticize the head negotiators at the time for having accepted an inferior deal. "The Israeli government wanted money to build the state," says José Brunner, director of the Minerva Institute for German History at the University of Tel Aviv. "They weren't as interested in the survivors back then."

The costs of providing social services to Holocaust survivors in Israel rose sharply, especially as a result of the unexpected immigration of tens of thousands of survivors from the former Soviet Union. The Israeli state ended up paying far more to its Holocaust survivors than it had received from Germany for the purpose. In addition to compensation for individual survivors, Germany paid €1.5 billion to the Israeli government. However, Jerusalem spent close to five times that amount. "It was a negotiating mistake for which Israel paid a high price," says Raul Teitelbaum, author of a soon-to-be-published book about the mathematics of compensation, "The Biological Solution."

But even that money wasn't enough. About 80,000 Holocaust survivors still live in poverty in Israel today. In August the state comptroller, a sort of Israeli ombudsman for all kinds of disputes and controversies, published a report sharply critical of the government for its treatment of Holocaust survivors. According to the report, the state has "the ultimate moral obligation to address the welfare of the Holocaust survivors without delay." The government's lapses are all the more serious, wrote the state comptroller, because the reparations agreement deprived the survivors of the right to demand compensation from Germany.

After months of negotiations, the Israeli government increased its financial assistance to survivors by hundreds of millions of euros. Now Jerusalem is trying to get some of the money back from the Germans.

[The link to the second part of the story can be found on the link I provided]

Speakeasy · #2 (**permalink**) 11-07-2007

More like the holoCOST!

Yea, I got nothin'.

Frank · #3 (**permalink**) 11-08-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorhammer

When will it end? I don't think Germany should have to pay anymore to Holocaust survivors, or their relatives. Hell, Germany has paid over 92 billion dollars already. The Germans of today should not be penalized.

Notice the difference in how the neo-Bolshevik German 'news' publications report the reparations racket in comparison to how American news sources report the reparations racket;

BOLSHEVIK SPIEGEL:

The costs of providing social services to Holocaust survivors in Israel rose sharply, especially as a result of the unexpected immigration of tens of thousands of survivors from the former Soviet Union. The Israeli state ended up paying far more to its Holocaust survivors than it had received from Germany for the purpose. In addition to compensation for individual survivors, Germany paid €1.5 billion to the Israeli government. However, Jerusalem spent close to five times that amount. "It was a negotiating mistake for which Israel paid a high price," says Raul Teitelbaum, author of a soon-to-be-published book about the mathematics of compensation, "The Biological Solution."

vs:

ASSOCIATED PRESS

Critics maintain that more of the nearly $80 billion in reparations Israel has received in compensation from Germany should have gone to the survivors. A large percentage of the money, which was paid beginning in the 1950s as Israelis struggled to build their fledgling state, went to the military and for infrastructure.

Notice how the America publication points out how Israel STOLE German reparations money meant for the survivors to give to its military? Notice how the German publication seems to miss this little fact?

What is a matter Germany; afraid to let your citizens know they are being robbed blind by this reparations shake down? Oh how the little Stalins who govern Germany must hate the internet!

The truth will get out Germany; bank on it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by German Bolshevik Newspaper

After months of negotiations, the Israeli government increased its financial assistance to survivors by hundreds of millions of euros. Now Jerusalem is trying to get some of the money back from the Germans.

I think the following protest had something to do with it; conveniently Bolshevik Spiegel omitted the following little fact:

Survivors' protest makes foreign journalists gasp, security vanish - Haaretz - Israel News

'Negotiations' my sweet fanny!

Anselme · #4 (**permalink**) 11-08-2007

I think that they are not being reasonable, Germany paid enough, and I don't know why Germans today should paid because of the mistakes of their grand-fathers or great-grand-fathers!

I don't hear any kind of this in France...

Pogo · #5 (**permalink**) 11-08-2007

I'm all for it as long as I get my fair share. What's that? You have to be Jewish? Well, I ate some matzah balls one time, is that Jewish enough?

Frank · #6 (**permalink**) 11-08-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogo

I'm all for it as long as I get my fair share. What's that? You have to be Jewish? Well, I ate some matzah balls one time, is that Jewish enough?

Hmmmm....

"6,000,000" Jews killed by the Nazi's = $80 Billion in Reparations
9,000,000 Russian gentiles killed due to Nazi aggression = $0 in Reparations

What does that tell you?

DGG · #7 (**permalink**) 11-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank

Notice the difference in how the neo-Bolshevik German 'news' publications report the reparations racket in comparison to how American news sources report the reparations racket;

BOLSHEVIK SPIEGEL:

The costs of providing social services to Holocaust survivors in Israel rose sharply, especially as a result of the unexpected immigration of tens of thousands of survivors from the former Soviet Union. The Israeli state ended up paying far more to its Holocaust survivors than it had received from Germany for the purpose. In addition to compensation for individual survivors, Germany paid €1.5 billion to the Israeli government. However, Jerusalem spent close to five times that amount. "It was a negotiating mistake for which Israel paid a high price," says Raul Teitelbaum, author of a soon-to-be-published book about the mathematics of compensation, "The Biological Solution."

vs:

ASSOCIATED PRESS

Critics maintain that more of the nearly $80 billion in reparations Israel has received in compensation from Germany should have gone to the survivors. A large percentage of the money, which was paid beginning in the 1950s as Israelis struggled to build their fledgling state, went to the military and for infrastructure.

Notice how the America publication points out how Israel STOLE German reparations money meant for the survivors to give to its military? Notice how the German publication seems to miss this little fact?

What is a matter Germany; afraid to let your citizens know they are being robbed blind by this reparations shake down? Oh how the little Stalins who govern Germany must hate the internet!

The truth will get out Germany; bank on it!
...

So what? It cannot be the fault of the Government of the Federal Republic of Germany that the Government of Israel misappropriated the money, can it? The people who feel that they did not get enough of the money paid in the 1950's should ask the Israeli Government for compensation, not the German Government.

I agree with the people here who believe Germany has paid enough.

DGG · #8 (**permalink**) 11-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank

Hmmmm....

"6,000,000" Jews killed by the Nazi's = $80 Billion in Reparations
9,000,000 Russian gentiles killed due to Nazi aggression = $0 in Reparations

What does that tell you?

It tells me two things:

1. Your numbers are wrong. The Soviet Union robbed East Germany of tremendous amounts of industrial machines, treasures and other valuables after the war, calling this war reparations.

2. There is a difference between killing people in an organized genocide, like the Holocaust, and killing people in a war.

Imperator · #9 (**permalink**) 11-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGG

It tells me two things:

1. Your numbers are wrong. The Soviet Union robbed East Germany of tremendous amounts of industrial machines, treasures and other valuables after the war, calling this war reparations.

2. There is a difference between killing people in an organized genocide, like the Holocaust, and killing people in a war.

Agreed to an extent, the Einsatz commandos liberally wiped out villages etc, anyone they suspected of harboring partisans ( resistance) etc......but then again, this was not done so much on a race creed or color basis, but a supposed military one...

DGG · #10 (**permalink**) 11-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imperator

Agreed to an extent, the Einsatz commandos liberally wiped out villages etc, anyone they suspected of harboring partisans ( resistance) etc......but then again, this was not done so much on a race creed or color basis, but a supposed military one...

I am aware of that. I would never defend such warfare. Nevertheless, it was warfare - of sorts - not organized genocide.

Frank · #11 (**permalink**) 11-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGG

It tells me two things:

1. Your numbers are wrong.

Show me what reparations the Russians received? Let's see some numbers...

Quote:

The Soviet Union robbed East Germany of tremendous amounts of industrial machines, treasures and other valuables after the war, calling this war reparations.

And Israel has robbed Germany of billions of dollars meant to go to the survivors but went to their military; why does Israel deserve one more Shekel from the people of Germany?

Quote:

2. There is a difference between killing people in an organized genocide, like the Holocaust, and killing people in a war.

Is that not slightly twisted to rank human suffering in such a manner? Who is to say the Russian gentile child who had his arm blown off by a invading Panzer and then bled to death suffered less then a Jew who died in a camp? Or do you just believe the life of a Jew is worth more than that of a gentile?

DGG · #12 (**permalink**) 11-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank

Show me what reparations the Russians received? Let's see some numbers...

Do you doubt that the Soviet army took things of a value over the amount of $0, stated by you?

Quote:

And Israel has robbed Germany of billions of dollars meant to go to the survivors but went to their military; why does Israel deserve one more Shekel from the people of Germany?

From your words, you admit that the Soviet Union did rob East Germany of valuables. Then why do you ask for numbers above?

I have not said that Israel should get more from Germany, have I?

Quote:

Is that not slightly twisted to rank human suffering in such a manner? Who is to say the Russian gentile child who had his arm blown off by a invading Panzer and then bled to death suffered less then a Jew who died in a camp? Or do you just believe the life of a Jew is worth more than that of a gentile?

It is not more twisted than the definitions of human suffering in international law. It is unlawful to target civilians in a war, but it is not unlawful to cause harm or even death to civilians as collateral damage. It is not unlawful to kill your uniformed enemy in a war. It is, however, unlawful to commit genocide.

Frank · #13 (**permalink**) 11-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGG

Do you doubt that the Soviet army took things of a value over the amount of $0, stated by you?

We are talking about reparations; what reparations did the Soviet Union receive?

Quote:

From your words, you admit that the Soviet Union did rob East Germany of valuables. Then why do you ask for numbers above?

I am talking about reparations not theft; I would say the Soviets have a much greater claim to reparations than does a nation that did not even exist in WWII...

Quote:

It is not more twisted than the definitions of human suffering in international law. It is unlawful to target civilians in a war, but it is not unlawful to cause harm or even death to civilians as collateral damage.

I would say the violations of several sections of the 4th Hague Conventions of 1907 in a war of aggression is hardly lawful; remember the Nazi's invaded the Soviet Union in an aggression campaign and killed many in violation of customary international law.

In fact the allies including the Soviets were just as criminal in their conduct. Your knowledge of international law is rather suspect; warring parties are to take all precautions in protecting innocent civilian life. This is did not happen in WWII from any side.

Quote:

It is not unlawful to kill your uniformed enemy in a war. It is, however, unlawful to commit genocide.

9,000,000 gentile civilians are not a uniformed enemy...

DGG · #14 (**permalink**) 11-11-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank

We are talking about reparations; what reparations did the Soviet Union receive?

The Soviet Union actually justified its robbery of East Germany by stating it was war reparations.

Quote:

I am talking about reparations not theft; I would say the Soviets have a much greater claim to reparations than does a nation that did not even exist in WWII...

The German reparations have never been directed to the State of Israel, but to the victims and the families of victims of the Holocaust. Still, some have beenpaid to Israel in order to be forwarded to those who had claims.

Quote:

In fact the allies including the Soviets were just as criminal in their conduct. Your knowledge of international law is rather suspect; warring parties are to take all precautions in protecting innocent civilian life. This is did not happen in WWII from any side.

When I wrote about 'collateral damage', I meant the civilian casualties you cannot protect even though you take all reasonable precautions to protect them.