agreed....further- if the Germans French et al were not serious about helping out they should never have volunteered to send troops or told us they would hold down any provinces sans real effort etc....

I will also add that to an extent they may feel ill used , in that we took our eye off the ball and invaded Iraq etc. and they felt we should be doing the heavy lifting in Afghanistan..

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

Agreed, the only way Afghanistan is ever going to stand on its two feet is one of two ways, or both. A: Afghanistan gains a strong economy, as as long as heroine is the only crop and industry so to speak Afghanistan will never be able to stand on its own feet (as heroine gives the war lords leverage over the country and thus they cycle will continue unopposed). As strong economy would also give Afghanistan the control to deal with Pakistan. Oh as for B: Pakistan comes under control somehow of its borders, which is just not going to happen anytime soon either.

Until then, NATO troops stay, hopefully Gates can get Germany and the others to help in the other parts of Afghanistan instead of just guarding fairly safe Afghanistan.

The key political problem for NATO countries to offer more support for Afghanistan is the widespread view that doing so only acts to subsidize the operation so the USA can shift more resources out of Afghanistan and into Iraq (as the US has been doing steadily since 2003).

Ergo, NATO support for Afghan operation inherently acts as a subsidy for the US occupation of Iraq. This is something that NATO nations have a seriously
difficult time with (risking the wrath of their citizenry).

Indications from the Canadain debate suggest that the 'linkage' between Iraq and Afghanistan is what has driven down Canadian public support for the operation. On its own, the Afghan operation is a popular one. As soon as it is linked with the US occupation of Iraq, public support goes out the window.

And just for the fun of it, here is an excellent and provocative article that offers an interesting and rational interpretation of US strategic interests in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Pakistan problem: Washington's perspective | EnergyBulletin.net | Peak Oil News Clearinghouse

The article is highly recommended reading.

This is what I like especially about this board, gaining the viewpoint of those outside of the US, or even outside of my community.

It sounds like the US should send a message to the West that their assistance in Afghanistan would not just be a subsidy toward other US goals, but a genuine goal of the entire international community. To do that, though, it'd have to commit much more resources to the war in Afghanistan, but Iraq is inevitably in the picture causing a lot of problems. Makes you wonder what the world would be like with an invasion of Iraq by the 'coalition'.

__________________
No man is an island...
Each man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in Mankind.
And therefore, never send to know
For whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
—John Donne

I see the following basic options:

1. Get out of Iraq if we expect expanded NATO assistance with Afghanistan
2. Stay in both countries
3. Cease all ME/EA combat/security operations

#1 requires a loss of face and will require expanding the Afghanistan War into Pakistan, a nuclear armed country with a majority population consisting of Muslim fundamentalists.

#2 is business as usual, placing additional stress on our ground forces and letting a new administration deal with the mess.

If you are still serious - I did see Rambo 4. Also, I was in Thailand and planned to move to Birma (Muanmar). There is very cheap quick on-spot visa procedure therefore normally almost every tourist usually visits Thailand, Muanmar and Kambodia at one stroke. My friends were there and all say it is the same Thailand, a bit poorer people and the hotels less luxury. But the authentic architecture worths it. Stallone has done latest works of Tarantino.

1. USSR withdrowed troops from Afganistan by the 15 Feb 1989, 19 years ago.

2. USSR didn't lost the war, the goals of war were recognized stupid, as many other things that did USSR. Russian people didn't need the Soviet expansion, so as soon as the modernisation of Soviet regime started, the war was simply abolished, as the senseless waste of national resources, including the presence of troops in Eastern Europe and arms race at all.

3. Russia doesn't have any problems with Islam or with any real worshippers of that religion, even radical ones. Islamism and islamofascism are things, invented in Langley. They created this project of terror war for the USSR in Afganistan and since that time never stopped the covert actions. Only difference is that now we deal with that on our territory. Thanks god, they can not bite two juicy stakes at once and need all their terrorists in Iraq, to blow up this wretched country in to three pieces - but for that they'd got down to Russia, China and Central Asia.

Numbers 1 and 3 are very unlikely—I think you and I would agree on that. Assuming that these three are the only options (I’m sure there are a lot of complexities I’m not thinking of), that leaves 2. I don’t know much about the US’s military capabilities nor its nation-building capabilities (the latter certainly doesn’t seem too good), but it seems to me that the US must find some way to convince the international community that it is genuinely concerned about the importance of Afghanistan. And the US is apparently in a position to do that, given the leverage with the Pakistani government.

Btw, do you have a source about the ‘majority population’ of Pakistan consisting of Muslim fundamentalists?

__________________
No man is an island...
Each man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in Mankind.
And therefore, never send to know
For whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
—John Donne

I haven't finished reading it, but it is definitely interesting. From what I've seen so far, it looks rational but the evidence is scarce.

__________________
No man is an island...
Each man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in Mankind.
And therefore, never send to know
For whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
—John Donne

Would be nonsense to attack Pakistan because it's a nuclear power - on the other hand: the Taliban are living in Pakistan and no one can solve this problem in Afghanistan. Seems to me the plan is to stay in Afghanistan forever. The Taliban and Iran for example started in 1998 nearly a war against each other. Both - Taliban and Iran are enemies of the USA. The whole situation is very strange and I think the key for all this secrets is in saudi-arabia and in the brains of Bush and his gang - if he has a brain and ist not an extraterrestrian . What about to send Bush and his gang as prisoners to Guantanamo and the SSoldiers there try to ask him with the "normal" methods of Guantanamo what his plans are? Perhaps this makes the world to a better place? Who knows?

__________________


Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I know, what a concentation camps is and Gunatanamo is a concentration camp. And all americans that think it in another way are completly stupid if they doin't hear what a German says if he says: be careful Guanatanamo is a conentraion camp. You shoul be glad, that someone is warnign you. The USA is a mighty nation and so all nations in the world are lying if they speak with it. No one tells someone who is mighty, that he is doing something wrong. But I do so. Guantanamo is a concentration camp. Close it! There is no other way if you like justice.

__________________


Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

This is also a solution instead psychiatric hospitals.

__________________


Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

This is a serious problem. What will be the point of overreacting?

If you are remembering the war in vietnam the problem was it in this days, that 2 millions vietnamese people died - only because some people had some ideas we don't know today what this ideas were anymore. Anyhow: They killed the people they like to be free. That was nonsense. Sometimes something can become an automatism. But this automatism was stopped by the american people in this days. This was a very great event that sent an atmosphere of hope all over the world and the USA wan worldwide a big reputation.

__________________


Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Perhaps you should not ignore that Afghanistan is a trouble spot since the times of Alexander the Great. Do you think in the next 2500 years will be enough time to solve the problems? Or do you think 2.5 years are enough time?

__________________


Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery