some interesting reading regards who may drifting where and the worries involved regards economics and eastern europe...

Pipedreams
Jan 24th 2008 | VILNIUS

America seems to care more than the European Union about eastern Europe

EUROPEANS may not always like it, but America still matters most for their security. As Kosovo edges towards independence, NATO ponders further expansion and Russia rips Europe's threadbare energy policy to rags, every debate involves America. And the mood is gloomy.

“Russia is getting stronger; we are getting weaker”, concludes one European political leader. That is alarmingly clear in Serbia, where a pro-Russian nationalist, Tomislav Nikolic, came out ahead in the first round of the presidential election on January 20th. Serbia has just signed an energy pact to distribute Russian gas exports to Europe; in return a Russian company (the oil arm of Gazprom, the state-run gas giant) is to get a controlling share in Serbia's national oil monopoly.

Europeans flinch at the idea of Kosovo, the mostly ethnic-Albanian province of Serbia, declaring independence immediately—something the Russians strongly oppose. The Americans fear that more delay risks violence by impatient Kosovars or by Serb provocateurs. Some Europeans plead for a few weeks longer, perhaps to allow yet more talks with Serbia after its presidential election, or simply to get more European waverers such as Spain and Romania to back European Union recognition of an independent Kosovo.

Serbia is one of what some analysts call “swing states”, places where Russia and the West are vying for influence. Others include Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Moldova—and even a few EU members such as Latvia and Bulgaria. President Vladimir Putin of Russia, accompanied by his likely successor, Dmitry Medvedev, recently signed a deal with Bulgaria to build a new pipeline across the Black Sea. Called South Stream, this will pipe Russian gas direct to Europe, bypassing transit countries such as Ukraine and Poland. In this, it matches Nord Stream, a similar bypass under the Baltic (see map).

South Stream may stymie a rival EU effort, Nabucco, which was meant to bring gas from the Caspian and Central Asia to western Europe through the Balkans. Nabucco would be the only pipeline from the region not to cross Russian territory, giving Europe the hope of more diversified gas supplies. Nabucco's prospects already looked shaky: gas for it must come from either a trans-Caspian pipeline (which Russia has blocked) or Iran (which America dislikes). If South Stream were built, it would make Nabucco uneconomic.

Pipelines and dependence on Russian gas are not the only sources of controversy. American and European diplomats are also wrestling with the question of NATO expansion, which may feature at the alliance's summit in Bucharest in April. The leading candidate is Croatia. Albania and Macedonia are less prepared, but bringing them in might be seen as one way of countering instability caused by Serbia's hostility to Kosovo's independence.

That leaves Ukraine, whose new government says it wants eventually to join NATO, and Georgia, which tarnished its democratic credentials in a crackdown on opposition protests in November. Offering either country a membership action plan—a staging post to joining the alliance—would enrage Russia. But holding back might be seen as giving the Kremlin a veto over its neighbours' security arrangements. The hunt is on for something else to offer instead.

Largely silent is the EU, whose members appear more concerned over institutional reform and emissions targets (see article) than geopolitical issues. That worries the Americans. They seem to have settled a row with Poland over a planned missile-defence base. But not much else is going right. Ron Asmus, a former American diplomat now at the German Marshall Fund, a think-tank, frets publicly about a “rollback” of the West's influence in eastern Europe. He is not the only one.



Eastern Europe, America and Russia | Pipedreams | Economist.com

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile....

I wonder who that "one European political leader" is that concluded that "russia is getting stronger, we are getting weaker". The Union grew so fast in recent years that this statement, sorry - to my mind the second part of the statement is utter bullshit. Take a map and pin a flag into each former russian satellite which has joined, is joining, is considering, attempting or seriously arguing about joining the EU. Even most turks and some Israelis (among then Bejamin Nethanyahu) want to join the Union (both gives me the creeps, honestly), not to mention the north african peoples. The reason why we suddenly have problems with Russia has two root-causes: one lies on the other shore of the ocean, and one in the past. One: we broke every promise we gave Russia after the fall of the iron curtain - we expanded NATO further and further to their borders (I blame America for that, especially when I look at current events in the Caucasus) and threaten the russians with an anti-missile defence system - and even worse, two: We Europeans totally failed to integrate Russia into some kind of partnership or political balance in the first place.

Russia is rising again, yes. Constant economic growth and russia's benefit of situation in the energy-market are obvious. But to my mind, in the long run, russia will just be a questionmark in the struggle between us and China. The failure to integrate Russia into the western system could have severe consequences in this struggle, which in my eyes will occur sooner or later when the far-easts' economic powers will challenge us to end the economical and cultural dominance of "the white man".

The Nabucco pipeline is a good idea, like the pipeline through the sea that is independent from Estonia, Latavi, Lithunania, Poland, Belarus and Ukraine. And it's also good to have an independent pipeline from Azerbaidschan to greece, hungaria, austria. But what about the spanish, italian, french and british side of the European Union? Skandinavia should be no problem. They have a lot of energy. Perhaps we should buy some Energy from Lybia? What are the arabs, northafricans and Iranians are doing with the natural gas? Do they have none or don't they sell it? Isn't it automatically everywhere where oil is existing? How is this working in the south and southeast of Europe? What about Africa?

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Russia has more billionaires than whole Germany and this happened only within a few years. What are you talking about? And: the Russians are "white man".

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I don't know what this billionaires per captiva thing shall prove, could you please clarify? Regarding your statement that the russians are "the white man", I have to say that I might have been unlucky in the chose of my words. What I meant with "reign of the white man" was the dominance of the european peoples and their offsprings, often refered to as "the west" or the "western world". Well most citizens of russia surely belong to our culture area, but what I wanted to say was that we failed to integrate them properly.

I'm not interested in.

I'm a European. I'm always right and others are always wrong - specially the stupid americans, which are so unbelievable arrogant not ot see that the european culture is the right culutre anymore ... whatever. I'm interested in the truth and if a Martian with yellow-blue stripes is telling me the truth I hope I will understand what he is saying.
If someone thinks about Europe he will see that it is impossible that Europe is working - but it is working. So what? What are you talking about dominance? Do we have any influence to the Russian people? Do we send Propaganda somewhere in the world? We are just nothing else then damned stupid twat, which do whatever we like to do. That's all.

The americans are in the same way - the russians are in the same way - chinese is in the same way. Arabia, Israel, Iran ... nearly everyone in the world is in the same way - except the tibet people maybe and the holy pope of rome. And you are talking about dominance? Yes - we have good workers, good scientists and one good soccer team. That's it. And everything is in the hands of god and not in the hands of the dominance of some stupid people - wether they are europeans or not.

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

What exactly is so problematic in current state of political balance and partnership between Russia and Europeans? Private trips and business visits are free, the trade is thriving, the guests respecting our home are welcome. I don't understand about what integration failure problem you say. I think you don't realise it yourself properly too.

Ethnic Russians are as White as a sheet; in fact that most organised and powerful White Nationalist groups are Russian.

Personally I would pay to watch the EU try to do something about that little phenomenon; watching European Union troops crying, screaming and begging for mercy at the feet of advancing Spetsnaz troops would be most gratifying.

Off topic: I watched a program on the Spetznas (sp?) forces last night on the Military Channel. Those guys are tough. Definately classic Russian too. Like the AK-47 and pretty much any MIG ever produced; can take a beating and still function as expected. Not a trace of ego, just a bunch of quiet men skilled in the arts of dispatching enemies.

Then I thought about a clip I saw on youtube about North Korean Special forces awhile back. It was the most ridiculous foolishness. Guys using their foreheads to pound nails into wooden blocks and diving thru firey hoops. Reminds me more of a circus act.

I would like to see North Korea really piss Russia off once and for all and witness the consequenses. of course that will never happen, but I can still dream

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Youre not interested in making people understand your arguments? In a forum for political discussions? Don't you think a mirror would be a more suitable place to indulge in monolouges?

What are you? Some american kiddie who wants to let Europeans look like morons? Or are you only a little disturbed? (not meant as an insult, this is a serious question) Since you pretend to be german, and I am a german, too, you sure don't mind this little test. Please answer the following question, both parts clearly in proper german:

Watt soll datt janze hier un watt zum deufel willste uns hia verzapfte?

I know that Italy and France get a lot of gas from Algeria

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Oh I sure do realize the problem properly. Russia has only been intergrated into the west's economic system, not into it's political and not into it's militarical system. And yes, I am suggesting that Russia should be fully integrated in NATO and EU. But fully aware of that most russians have not realized yet that the times of the russian empire are over forever, I know that this could only happen in 50-100 years. Nevertheless, a system of less bounding treaties between Russia/EU and Russia/NATO could already have been established in the late 90ties. Problem is such a powerful nation like Russia will not sign such a treaty if the treaty does not clearly enable it to take influence. I guess for most Europeans it would have been a scary thought that Russia is able to take direct influence on EU and NATO, anyway.

And what is in that deal for Russia; oppressive rule from Brussels and the loss of Russian sovereignty? Looks to me like you want to accomplish politically what Germany could not accomplish militarily in 1941.

I don't think that Russia really likes to have a serious confrontation with Europe - specially with Germany - anymore. All real good politicians of Russia had a very thight connection to the common roots of Europe. The Problem of Russia will be to rebuild a real (european) nation of the empire they are still are and Russia is able to learn a lot of Europe and try to understand the european experiments that hopefully are very successful for all times. One result of this experiments is peace.

By the way: All solutions the criminal politician Wilson made after world war I exploded and nothing kept stable what americans did in this days. Seems for me it's the same with the politics of the lieing politician Bush. Nothing can be stable for a long time what he ever did in international politics. The USA seemed to became a military dinosaurus that fights angainst the US-Citizens by mindcontrol and is interested in destable situations worldwide where it is needed that the USA is alyways doing something to correct the problems that it is producing itself. Perhaps it has a sickness called politicoholics?

Seems for me the USA is often to fast and to slow in the same time - and this is funny from time to time. And it seems to me that the USA is not able to recognize the real structures in the world. This means: it is working together with criminals and it is killing from time to time good people. So maybe you are trusting in god - but can god trust you anymore?

If you take a look to southamerica for example it's not in this way, that south america won since the Monroe doctrin in 1823 where the european influence in south america was stopped and in the same time the american influence grew up. The last 200 years the USA was not successful to struggle against poverty in Southamerica - but it had no problems to destroy democracies like in Chile in 197x. If you think aboit sentences form Bush like "Everything is good for the world, that is good for the USA" you will see that means the rulershop of national egoisms and not the rulership of justice. There are lot of reasons people in the world are angry about the USA - and the result of this is it, that the USA likes to make a lot of people in the world much more angry - always like a little child that never likes to grow up.

A reaction like in WTC is not onaly a product of foolish terrorists and our incompetences to recognize in the right time what is going on - it is also a result of the foolish american politics, that always tries to kill some kind of stupid thinkings and is always killing people instead of this. Not even americans live in peace in their own country - like in the McCarthy for example. A man like Mr Charles Chaplin - a real great american tramp - was thrown out. What a nation. Really unbelievable. Instead being proud in the right things it's often proud in the wrong things.

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

You know, I had a good laugh yesterday. There was this documentary in TV, about Russia and the Baltic Sea. There was an interview with an officer of the russian navy, and when they asked him what he thinks about giving Japan some of the isles back Russia occupied after WWII, he said: "If we give those isles back to Japan, next thing what will happen is Germany will demand eastern Prussia back." Lol. It's still 1945 in many brains over there, isn't it. Just a little note, many germans were glad if we even could give east Germany back, in return to the literally trillions of DM we had to spent there to make 50 years of russian occupation undone. Let me tell you something about the ordinary central and western european: We mind our own business. We don't need to oppress other peoples anymore to boost our ego. If you yourself can't see the vast advantages a NATO and EU membership brings to a nation, there is no way of making them visible for you, anyway.