An 'Americanization' of German Foreign Policy?: Merkel's CDU Calls for Missile Shield for Europe - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

Is the Union friggin' nuts?! They want to transfer the control of the army to the government!! Without having any reason to do so, just because the Bundestag has become uncomfortable for them. I will oppose this plan to the bitter end. Even if I have to throw stones in the streets. The ENTIRE control of our armed forces must stay COMPLETELY in the hands of our parliament. Still today, these fucking morons are justifying their advertisements for the Iraq war, by saying if we kept holding pressure on Saddam he had turned over the non-existant WMD and no war had taken place. Idiots. Not only this, but meanwhile the CSU also has sacrificed their last credibility by launching their bavarian election campaign with a bunch of pipe-dreams. And the leader of the social-democratic party is auctioning his beard.

I am getting more and more disgusted by our entire system of political parties.

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"I think that gay marriage should be allowed."
- John McCain on an episode of Hardball, 2006, before the commercial break

"I do not believe that gay marriage should be legal."
- John McCain on the same episode of Hardball, after the commercial break

"John McCain does not speak for the John McCain campaign."
- Tucker Bounds, Spokesman of the John McCain presidential campaign.

The straight talk express. You gotta love it.

I'm sure it's just a bit of semantics, but I'm pretty certain parliament is part of the government, so technically the military is already under the control of the government.

@Kash: No, it's the other way round... goverment is part of the parliament. So decisions about using military force have to be made by the parliament, which makes it much harder for the governing party(s) to reach such a decision. First time in german history past 1945 was the war in yugoslavia in 1999.

@mabus: True, so true. If you're the first, I'll be the second to demonstrate that. But tbh... I wouldn't miss the leftist parts of our parliament in that kind of decision process. They are good in talking about human rights, but wouldn't send troops anywhere under any circumstances... imho that's illusionary.

To the German members here, and with all due respect, can you tell me if the military falling under the chancellor rather than parliment comes from a backlash of past experiences, namely those in the WWII days?

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Abstinence Education at its finest:

Military deployments outside our borders are a pretty tricky thing for our government. We are a very pacifistic society, and we are thankful that when the allies founded our nation, one of their primary focuses was putting the control of the armed forces entirely in the hand of the legislative organs. So, events like renewing the mandate for our expedition forces in Kosovo and Afghanistan are always a very controversal thing, and in the end the controverse is always fought out in our parliament. What happens now is that the conservative parties try to eliminate the entire influence of the people on this process. They want their government to gain control of the armed forces. The last time that happened here, 50 million people died. I'm not saying that the conservative parties are trying to start a war, but they are demanding the right to do so if they feel it is necessary. And I think the only appropriate answer to this demand is a spit in the face. This is simply outrageous and contradicts every ethic value this society founds on. I think that the gouvernment should be disbanded and reelections should take place immediately.

__________________
"I think that gay marriage should be allowed."
- John McCain on an episode of Hardball, 2006, before the commercial break

"I do not believe that gay marriage should be legal."
- John McCain on the same episode of Hardball, after the commercial break

"John McCain does not speak for the John McCain campaign."
- Tucker Bounds, Spokesman of the John McCain presidential campaign.

The straight talk express. You gotta love it.

Yes, the new left is untrustworthy on many issues. But they are a result of the failure of our political system, and will soon have established themselves permanently among all the other lip-service providers.

__________________
"I think that gay marriage should be allowed."
- John McCain on an episode of Hardball, 2006, before the commercial break

"I do not believe that gay marriage should be legal."
- John McCain on the same episode of Hardball, after the commercial break

"John McCain does not speak for the John McCain campaign."
- Tucker Bounds, Spokesman of the John McCain presidential campaign.

The straight talk express. You gotta love it.

Ok, I agree you, mabus, this time!
You are right!
your entire system of political parties are wasting money of German people!
Every party of German is seeking money for themselves!
Every political character is seeking money for himself!
There's only politician, no statesman any more!

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Perhaps the left is just trying to take advantage of a situation.

You need to resist the urge to listen to them because the left if given a chance would turn Germany into something you wouldn't want it to be. Their ideas aren't any better then anyone else's.

You guys have it together. Don't let anyone try to change you.

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“The only thing standing between Joe Biden and the presidency is his mouth.”

- Michele Malkin

I don't think it really changes anything. We in the Netherlands still don't know how we got into Iraq because all the major parties except the new left voted for it, so nobody has the balls to start an investigation. I think we have the same procedures as in Germany.

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When WW2 had ended everyone joined the resistance.

Events could have easily taken a different way in Germany in late 2002, too. We had luck that the '68 generation was in office at that time, and that the election campaign entered the hot phase exactly then when it became obvious that the United States were about to launch a military invasion against Iraq. Both circumstances made it very difficult to quietly lash a german participation through through the process of decision-making.

The reason why I think that it is important that the entire control of the army lies in the hands of the parliament is not because I trust the parties. In fact, the only party which still has SOME credibility in my eyes is the market-liberal party (FDP). The reason I think we need the parliament in control of the army is because I still have trust into the individual members of Parliament. There are many pacifists in the Bundestag, and they will be the alert signal when it comes so far that our gouvernment wants to start something militarically the mass of pacifists cannot tolerate. This will give us the time we need to mobilize the masses. In late 2002, we have already seen what happens on german streets if a friendly nation starts an unnecessary war. When it comes that far that our gouvernment is about to deliberatelly fuck things up, we then will have some time to permanently destroy the political future of the specific ruling parties. That threat forces them to think twice before they can start messing up our nation's reputation.

__________________
"I think that gay marriage should be allowed."
- John McCain on an episode of Hardball, 2006, before the commercial break

"I do not believe that gay marriage should be legal."
- John McCain on the same episode of Hardball, after the commercial break

"John McCain does not speak for the John McCain campaign."
- Tucker Bounds, Spokesman of the John McCain presidential campaign.

The straight talk express. You gotta love it.

All government are constituted of three fundamental parts, the legislative, the executive, and the judiciary. So to say "government" is part of parliament makes no sense, regardless of how great of a role parliament plays in Germany. Even if you stuck all three "branches" into one entity, it would still fall under the term government.

Perhaps you mean something else when you use the word "government."

Honestly I can't follow you and don't see the point you try to make

Anyway I'm near Mabus views on this topic and hope we'll never change our "rules", which ask for a two-thirds majority in parliament for the desicion to declare a "case of defense".

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"bellum omnium contra omnes; atque in eo bello jus esse omnibus in omnia."
Thomas Hobbes

"Homo Homini Lupus"
Thomas Hobbes

I just watched the news and the incident is beeing played down. Voices from the military state that the armed forces do not support such plans. Seems like the conservatives are trying to "sit it out", they haven't spoken out on the plans since they were revealed (that was two days ago).

I am dissapointed about the public reaction to these plans. A proper bitchslap for the conservative parties would have been necessary. Now it seems that the thing is just beeign discarded and will be forgotten in less than a week.

__________________
"I think that gay marriage should be allowed."
- John McCain on an episode of Hardball, 2006, before the commercial break

"I do not believe that gay marriage should be legal."
- John McCain on the same episode of Hardball, after the commercial break

"John McCain does not speak for the John McCain campaign."
- Tucker Bounds, Spokesman of the John McCain presidential campaign.

The straight talk express. You gotta love it.

Maybe I should have used the term administration instead of government to be more precise. In our case that means the elected members of on or the coalition of several parties winning enough seats together in order to form a majority in the parliament and by that constituting an administration (= "Regierung" in german).

The point is, that taking the power from the parliament (all parties winning more than 5% of the total votes are represented here) and giving it to the "Regierung" makes it more likely that at some day a "Regierung" will start to believe, that the military is a political tool in their hands. In my case I'd rather have such decisions made on a broader basis. 2/3s of the parliament was a setting that kept us out of conflicts for decades. The last years of us foreign politics are what we dont want to see from our politicians and they are at least as half-assed as yours....