Burma (Myanmar) Cyclone and neo-liberal economics - Page 3 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

Steve · #31 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by pramjockey

Wow.

Zero sympathy for the suffering of thousands or millions of your fellow human beings.

I'm not sure how one becomes like this. Then again, maybe I don't really want to know.

I'm sorry, perhaps you could point out where I said I was against providing aid. Can you do that?

No?

Huh. Didn't think you could. Guess that's because you've now officially adopted the "Just make up bullshit and hope nobody notices" tactic.

The fact of the matter is that we've offered help. If their government declines that help, there's not a lot we'll be able to do. So, fuck 'em. I'm not going to lose sleep over a country that has declined an offer of assistance after such a catastrophic disaster. If they don't want our help, there are plenty of other people out there who do. Sure it's sad, but you can't save everybody.

I say we help those who will accept it. What's your position?

pramjockey · #32 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

I'm sorry, perhaps you could point out where I said I was against providing aid. Can you do that?

No?

Huh. Didn't think you could. Guess that's because you've now officially adopted the "Just make up bullshit and hope nobody notices" tactic.

Huh? Perhaps you should start by pointing out where I said that you were against providing aid. I sure don't see it in my post.

Quote:

The fact of the matter is that we've offered help. If their government declines that help, there's not a lot we'll be able to do. So, fuck 'em. I'm not going to lose sleep over a country that has declined an offer of assistance after such a catastrophic disaster. If they don't want our help, there are plenty of other people out there who do.

I say we help those who will accept it. What's your position?

My position is that it's impossible to force aid on a nation that doesn't want it (not that we should). However, that doesn't stop me from having sympathy for those who are suffering. I'm able to separate the government from the people, and I think that it's unfortunate that the Myanmar government is so fucked up that it will allow its citizens to suffer so.

Perhaps you remember this statement?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

If they say no, fuck 'em. I've zero sympathy for them...

Andrewl · #33 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strider

As to the overall tone of the thread, embrace of markets, generally speaking, has made more people better off, in a shorter ammount of time, than pretty much any force in human history.

In the same amount time it has destroyed the lives of millions of indigenous and poor people around the world. And many of the benefits for us will turn out to be mainly illusory as we hit the limits of production and the limits of ecology.

Besides, measuring the benefits is impossible to do since nobody agrees on a standard. Its not exactly clear that we are any more content as consumers as the plains indian were as a hunter/gatherers.

Andrew

pramjockey · #34 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrewl

In the same amount time it has destroyed the lives of millions of indigenous and poor people around the world. And many of the benefits for us will turn out to be mainly illusory as we hit the limits of production and the limits of ecology.

Besides, measuring the benefits is impossible to do since nobody agrees on a standard. Its not exactly clear that we are any more content as consumers as the plains indian were as a hunter/gatherers.

Andrew

Well, it is nice that a small infection isn't life threatening any more...

MattLarson · #35 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Bah, you neo-liberal American! You support bacterial genocide just to maintain your cozy way of life!

pramjockey · #36 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

Bah, you neo-liberal American! You support bacterial genocide just to maintain your cozy way of life!

Fuckin'-A I do! 6 bouts of pneumonia have given me an intense hatred of much of the prokaryotic forms of life!

Andrewl · #37 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by pramjockey

Well, it is nice that a small infection isn't life threatening any more...

True that (but then again, indians did have medicine and they did not have the diseases brought by the market forces of europe). But we could go on and on with the pros and cons of globalization vs localism, and it would not matter. Its simply not clear to me that people were miserable and totally depressed right up until the moment that markets came along. Surely the market had the opposite effect on the indians, with mass suicide among the males whose 10 000 year old tradition was snatched from them by the occupiers.

Its not even clear to me that people in the global market are all that content in the first place.

Andrew

pramjockey · #38 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Well, I'd say that contentment is something that most humans struggle to find regardless of the economic system or level of development within which they live.

Andrewl · #39 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Here is an example of neo-liberal aid for profit in New Orleans.

Profit rises, but Katrina aid stalls - Life - MSNBC.com

Two-and-a-half years after Hurricane Katrina, tens of thousands of miserable homeowners are still waiting for their government rebuilding checks, and many complain they can’t even get their calls returned. But the company that holds the big contract to distribute the aid is doing quite well for itself. ICF International of Fairfax, Va., has posted strong profits, gone public, landed additional multimillion-dollar government contracts, and, it was learned this week, secured a potentially big raise recently from the state of Louisiana.
In the waning days of Gov. Kathleen Blanco’s administration, state officials increased the management contract ceiling from $756 million to $914 million — this, after the Legislature wanted to fire ICF over its handling of the homeowner recovery program, called Road Home.

The main point of this thread is the tendency since the 90's of western economies to subject things that were not traditionally a market function to the market and make sure somebody reaps some profit from it. This continues even though it has no record of success in these areas.

Thanks to those mature enough to respond with their brains.

Andrew

TheLastBoyScout · #40 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrewl

So now that an awful disaster has fallen on the people of Burma what will the neo-liberal policy makers have in store for them.

As i see the news and the west pleading with the Burmese dictators to allow them to help i can't help but wonder what is going on in the background.

Will this help be compassionate, altruistic, and motivated purely by the suffering of the human animal?

Or will the help come with the usual strings attached. I.e., loans via the standard neo-liberal global institutions with the understanding that foreign multinats have easy access to develop Burma's oil, gas, and precious gems? (and wiggle in on China's influence in this country).

As we already know, human rights abuses and the displacement of people from their traditional lands for the purpose of exporting natural resources is already a big problem in Burma. Now that they are in shock from this disaster the standard modus operandi for the west is to use this opportunity to exploit them even further.

All of this will depend on the ruling authorities willingness to open up to the west of course.

So i guess what I'm wondering is will the western authorities help out of a desire to alleviate the suffering, or will they help out of a desire to ultimately profit and make geo-political gains (ultimately causing even more suffering in the end).

Note: Individual citizens the world over will no doubt assist out of a desire to alleviate suffering, not to profit. My question refers to western governmental and non-governmental institutions only.

Andrew

The death toll has crossed 20,000 people and there are an estimated 40,000 missing (which could easily mean dead).

It's a tragedy of immense proportions and Bush (and the U.N) has pledged aid in spite of the tyrannical regime that controls Burma. I commend Bush for the quick response to the tradgedy. There's no reason to believe that there are ulterior motives at work.

If anyone is using this tragedy as a soap box on which to stand and spew political bias or conspiracy theories, I think it's misguided and in poor taste.

Andrewl · #41 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by pramjockey

Well, I'd say that contentment is something that most humans struggle to find regardless of the economic system or level of development within which they live.

Yet when anthropologists study tribal indigenous groups or ancient asian cultures that still exist but have remained isolated and unaffected by the pressure of globalism they always note the high level of contentment they witness (and experience) when they spend some time with these folk.

And on the other hand modern market economies are racked with suicide, depression, violence, drug abuse, and desperation. There is a high level of dissatisfaction.

The evidence seems to indicate that contentment is not something that is always out-of-reach regardless of ones economic culture.

Im not saying there is pure happiness, but there is certainly degrees of happiness that are effected by ones culture.

Andrew

Andrewl · #42 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLastBoyScout

It's a tragedy of immense proportions and Bush (and the U.N) has pledged aid in spite of the tyrannical regime that controls Burma. I commend Bush for the quick response to the tradgedy. There's no reason to believe that there are ulterior motives at work.

Yes there is every reason to believe there are ulterior motives at work. There is a lengthy and well documented history of this since the early 90s.

Even after the Tsunami the pentagon used aid and the unique abilities of the US military to undermine the UN for unrelated political reasons. That is documented in the links i provided in an earlier post.

Andrew

pramjockey · #43 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrewl

Yet when anthropologists study tribal indigenous groups or ancient asian cultures that still exist but have remained isolated and unaffected by the pressure of globalism they always note the high level of contentment they witness (and experience) when they spend some time with these folk.

And on the other hand modern market economies are racked with suicide, depression, violence, drug abuse, and desperation. There is a high level of dissatisfaction.

The evidence seems to indicate that contentment is not something that is always out-of-reach regardless of ones economic culture.

Im not saying there is pure happiness, but there is certainly degrees of happiness that are effected by ones culture.

Andrew

I suspect that much of that is a result of the anthropologists' projection. It seems that suffering and dissatisfaction are part of the human condition. We may know more about it now than we did in more primitive (technologically) societies because we have more time to think about it and spend less time scraping for food or worrying about getting eaten by whatever nasty critter is outside the cave/tent/tepee.

TheLastBoyScout · #44 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrewl

Yes there is every reason to believe there are ulterior motives at work. There is a lengthy and well documented history of this since the early 90s.

Even after the Tsunami the pentagon used aid and the unique abilities of the US military to undermine the UN for unrelated political reasons. That is documented in the links i provided in an earlier post.

Andrew

I don't believe pure altruism exists. If you give, you give because it makes you feel good, or you expect something back, or you think you are obeying the will of your deity (for which you will be rewarded in the afterlife) or fitting the expectations of your culture (for which you will be rewarded with acceptance)....

But that doesn't mean we should spurn those who give nor pretend to know their intent. What would you have America do? Be reluctant to lend a hand out of fear of detractors who bemoan their assumed motives?

Alex · #45 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilettante

What is up with that? Who are you, the charity gestapo?

No Gestapo here. It's just that my bullshit radar went off big time. I doubt that Andrewl has made any contributions or even plans to give anything to aid the victims of the Cyclone in Myanmar. I think he's using this tragedy as an opportunity to make a political point. I find that rather ironic.

Of course Andrewl can always prove me wrong with a receipt. I won't hold my breath though.......

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