Most Germans Feel no Responsibility for Israel - Page 19 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

Meritocrat · #**271** (**permalink**) 09-26-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaro

And they deserved it after what they have done to Russia. There was no way to tell from submarine how many weapons, soldiers and civilians were transported by that ship.

Do you deny that the Soviet Union invaded eastern Poland and Finland prior to Barbarossa?

Do you deny that the Soviet Union would have eventually attacked Germany if the latter did not attack first?

Thorvald · #**272** (**permalink**) 09-26-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaro

And they deserved it after what they have done to Russia. There was no way to tell from submarine how many weapons, soldiers and civilians were transported by that ship.

You need a bit updating on the subject, my friend:

Quote:

Heinz Schön's more recent research is backed up by estimates made by a different method. The Discovery Channel program Unsolved History has undertaken a computer analysis (using software called maritime EXODUS) of the sinking, which estimated 9,400 dead −85% (among over 10,600 on board); this analysis considered the load density based on witness reports and a simulation of escape routes and survivability with the timeline of the sinking.

9,400 of the over 10,600 died. well deserved? Anyone with any humanity inside his body would think twice before saying that.

M.S. Wilhelm Gustloff - GALLERY - Photos

The Sinking of the Whilhelm Gustloff - Inge's Testimonial

I survived...

M.S. Wilhelm Gustloff - STORIES - BillJ

The Sinking of the Whilhelm Gustloff

M.S. Wilhelm Gustloff - THE SINKING / TRAGEDY

Quote:

Below deck, thousands of passengers attempt to settle in to their assigned areas for the journey. Last minute arrivals carve out any reasonable living space they are lucky to find. Every possible space on the ship is occupied. All are instructed over the loudspeaker to wear the lifejackets provided to them. Under no circumstances are they to remove them. Above deck, wind, snow and hail pelt the Gustloff. The seas become rougher as the Bay is left behind. Seasickness begins to set in for many. Unable to relieve themselves overboard, onboard toilets become clogged and the stench nauseating. Even so, for many it is a small price to pay for the hardships endured recently.

On the bridge, arguments among the four captains and senior officers continue. They hotly debate such things as route, optimal speed and whether the Gustloff should be following a zigzag course to avoid detection. One thing the captains can agree on: they are not pleased with the inadequacy of their escort. The Gustloff is supposed to be accompanied only by the Hansa (another liner filled with thousands headed West) and two aging torpedo boats. Things worsen when the Hansa and one of the torpedo boat escorts develop problems and cannot continue. The Wilhelm Gustloff is basically alone in an unforgiving sea with only one small escort to protect it. Approximately 1½ hours after leaving Gotenhafen, the Gustloff settles into a course further away from the coast in 'Lane No. 58' - an "officially" minesweeped channel.

Soviet submarine captain Alexander Marinesko slips into the Gulf of Danzig without informing his central command. Having patrolled with other Russian submarines off the coast near Memel, opportunities are scant. Aware of enemy activity around ports in the Danzig , he hopes for better odds. Aware of a court-martial hanging over him for previous on-shore indiscretions, he needs better odds. It is a calculated risk for the bold captain and his crew of 47 men. Without knowing it yet, Marinesko is charting a course directly to the deadliest sinking a submarine will ever score in history.

M.S. Wilhelm Gustloff - THE SINKING / TRAGEDY

jaro · #**273** (**permalink**) 09-26-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

Refugees, civilians, deserved death? You cannot be serious.

To all those "german civilians" defenders:
1.) That ship was not marked as a hospital ship
2.) During wars civilian ships are frequently used to transport weapons and soldiers.
3.) The ship was armed and had nearly thousand German officers on it (soldiers).
4.) Those civilians provided manpower before they left for the German army killing Russians.
5.) Germans killed lots of soldiers and civilians in Russia in horrible ways.

So what could they expect? All submarine captains would have attacked that ship if they had the oportunity. After all the suffering Germans caused to Russians back then, they deserved what they got. Germans only learned from their mistakes after they had to suffer results of war directly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meritocrat

Do you deny that the Soviet Union invaded eastern Poland and Finland prior to Barbarossa?

Do you deny that the Soviet Union would have eventually attacked Germany if the latter did not attack first?

Nobody is denying that Soviet Union invaded Poland and Finland. Your second statement is only a speculation. There was no reason why Soviet Union should have attacked Germany.

anobsitar · #**274** (**permalink**) 09-29-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaro

To all those "german civilians" defenders:
1.) That ship was not marked as a hospital ship
2.) During wars civilian ships are frequently used to transport weapons and soldiers.
3.) The ship was armed and had nearly thousand German officers on it (soldiers).
4.) Those civilians provided manpower before they left for the German army killing Russians.
5.) Germans killed lots of soldiers and civilians in Russia in horrible ways.

So what could they expect? All submarine captains would have attacked that ship if they had the oportunity. After all the suffering Germans caused to Russians back then, they deserved what they got. Germans only learned from their mistakes after they had to suffer results of war directly.

Nobody is denying that Soviet Union invaded Poland and Finland. Your second statement is only a speculation. There was no reason why Soviet Union should have attacked Germany.

You are from the third planet of the solar system or from acturus VI? Plays it any role wether it was a legal murder of thousands of people of the Gustloff or that this murder was illegal? Who of the passengers was responsible for what? Poor guys who tried to save their lifes and some criminal idiots killed them just for fun.

jaro · #**275** (**permalink**) 09-29-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by anobsitar

Poor guys who tried to save their lifes and some criminal idiots killed them just for fun.

Perhaps you would like to continue and tell us who they were trying to save lives from, and why. Nobody forced them to go on that trip in 1945, when German army was not capable of defending the ship.

Thorvald · #**276** (**permalink**) 09-29-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaro

Perhaps you would like to continue and tell us who they were trying to save lives from, and why. Nobody forced them to go on that trip in 1945, when German army was not capable of defending the ship.

You got to be kidding....

jaro · #**277** (**permalink**) 09-29-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorvald

You got to be kidding....

Please answer the question.

Thorvald · #**278** (**permalink**) 09-29-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaro

Please answer the question.

Does the massacre of Nemmersdorf ring any bells for you?

jaro · #**279** (**permalink**) 09-29-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorvald

Does the massacre of Nemmersdorf ring any bells for you?

Studying war events and people's suffering is not my hobby, but I can present a quote from wikipedia, which is not a very good source, but good enough to cast doubt on your claims.

Quote:

After 1991 and the fall of the Soviet Union, new sources became available and the dominant view among scholars became that the massacre was embellished, and actually exploited, by Goebbels in an attempt to stir up civilian resistance to the advancing Soviet Army. Bernhard Fisch, in his book Nemmersdorf, October 1944. What actually happened in East Prussia (the first book to also include the Russian view of the event) was the first to present this picture of the events. Fisch, an East Prussian and a soldier at the time, had been in Nemmersdorf a few days after it was re-taken, and remembered a totally different scene from the one depicted by the Wochenschau.[11] He interviewed many witnesses still alive on both sides (e.g., Soviet General Kuzma N. Galitsky, former commander of 11th Guards Army) and crossing out faulty memories against each other, he found out some disturbing details: the German army itself was responsible for destroying the strong German defensive position in front of Nemmersdorf (so the whole affair may even have been a trap, planned from the very start), and after the event no attempt had been made to identify the photographed victims by name. He was able to conclude that liberties were taken with at least some of the photographs, that some victims on the photographs were from other East Prussian villages, and that the notorious crucifixion barn doors were not even in Nemmersdorf. There also was the tight time schedule of witness Joachim Reisch, reducing the Soviet presence at Nemmersdorf to less than four hours of heavy fighting in front of the bridge.

Later research by historian Gerd R. Ueberschaer and German TV Channel ZDF further reduced the number of executions at Nemmersdorf to 23 (leaving ten unexplained deaths).

Nemmersdorf massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm done with you Thorvald.

Thorvald · #**280** (**permalink**) 09-29-2008

Does the truths hurts, Jaro?

As you put me on your ignore list - for God knows what reason - here is the PM you send me in public, as I find this highly childish from you. Why are you on a forum but not willingly to debate with your oponents?

PM from Jaro:

Quote:

From your posts I got the impression your are a nazi apologist. You avoid questions and try to portrait germans as innocent civilians. I'm not interested in discussion with nazi apologists, and you also do not need to respond to my posts anymore. You are on my ignore list from now.

Yes, people, Jaro accuse me being a Nazi apologist, you may call me what ever you like, but Iam no nazi. I defend innocent German civilians, there is a major differences in that. I know a few people who have relatives being victim of this war, being forced expelled by the Soviets. These people in question were simple folks, never a Nazi.

Nemmersdorf:

Nazis?

genocide

Nemmersdorf massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thorvald · #**281** (**permalink**) 09-29-2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRnPC...eature=related

A good youtube movie on the subject; highly reconmended.

oleg · #**282** (**permalink**) 10-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorvald

Yes, people, Jaro accuse me being a Nazi apologist, you may call me what ever you like, but Iam no nazi. I defend innocent German civilians, there is a major differences in that. I know a few people who have relatives being victim of this war, being forced expelled by the Soviets. These people in question were simple folks, never a Nazi.

Poor Nazis! How unjust life turns to be. They occasionly murdered 20 millions of children and women, and the husbonds and fathers of them strangely got angry and irrelevant!
How sad that even this one case of Nemmersdorf is obviously fake of Goebbels and almost all fascist handmen saved their breed.
Roll up your fotos and put them in your arse, Thorsheisse.
The fathers of the children depicted in your fotos burnt down the house and froze to death children of my kin, they tormented my grandgrandfather - the 60 years old man, they burned alive in the barn the WHOLE POPULATION of the village where my friend's family had relatives. My wounded helpless relative was sunk on the board of transport ship in 1942 in the Black Sea.
C'mon, go bleet how deeply wretched were German civilians. Show me more photos, TOO FEW.

ThorHammer · #**283** (**permalink**) 10-01-2008

Oleg, I don't think anyone here would say what happened to Russian civilians wasn't wrong. In fact, no one has. What happened to Russian civilians was just as horrible and sad as what happened to German civilians.

BTW, can you prove that the fathers of those children are guilty of the crimes you say they are? Or are you simply condeming all Germans?

oleg · #**284** (**permalink**) 10-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

Oleg, I don't think anyone here would say what happened to Russian civilians wasn't wrong. In fact, no one has. What happened to Russian civilians was just as horrible and sad as what happened to German civilians.

Not in the least had German civilians experienced the fate of Soviet civilians. The only similar case was Hamburg and Drezden, but in first case it were Brits who avenged the bombing of London, and in the letter case the Allies terrorized the city which already was assigned to the Soviet Zone, this act has more relation to the upcoming Cold War as well as Hiroshima wunderwaffe "demonstration".

Quote:

BTW, can you prove that the fathers of those children are guilty of the crimes you say they are? Or are you simply condeming all Germans?

Great luck was that Reich has chosen to colonize Communist post-Orthodox Christian civilization. Were it ME civilization or mirrored twin of Reich itself, the consequences of defeat would have been lethal for the Europe. No Marshall plan would have uplift it from the ruins then. Imagine "eye for eye" concept applied to the main participants of Axis - people, industries, houses, cultural centers.
The fathers of those children were guilty of the crimes I say. BECAUSE THE CRIMES I SAY WERE EVERYHERE, not only with my family. Millions of Germans versa millions of their terrible crimes. In this case I wouldn't care who payed for my dead, and who for the dead of my neighbour. Perhaps you never realized the meaning and smell of the horrable word "total war", because in fact Germans have never experienced the revenge to their actions in equivalent scale. They experienced the humiliation of the failed utopia, but have not felt the physical pain of losses.
Still, I would add, that main rascals who commited crimes in 1941-43 in Russia escaped the Russian punishment and saved their asses in the West. The poor youngest naive and patriotic Hitlerjugend boys who never were in Eastern Front were pushed to contain Russian wave and cover the backs of fleeing westward rats, to die or serve their 5 years in Siberia later.

ThorHammer · #**285** (**permalink**) 10-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by oleg

Not in the least had German civilians experienced the fate of Soviet civilians. The only similar case was Hamburg and Drezden, but in first case it were Brits who avenged the bombing of London, and in the letter case the Allies terrorized the city which already was assigned to the Soviet Zone, this act has more relation to the upcoming Cold War as well as Hiroshima wunderwaffe "demonstration".

So the murder of a Russian civilian means more than the murder of a German one? Murder is murder, no matter who is killed Oleg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oleg

The fathers of those children were guilty of the crimes I say. BECAUSE THE CRIMES I SAY WERE EVERYHERE, not only with my family. Millions of Germans versa millions of their terrible crimes. In this case I wouldn't care who payed for my dead, and who for the dead of my neighbour. Perhaps you never realized the meaning and smell of the horrable word "total war", because in fact Germans have never experienced the revenge to their actions in equivalent scale. They experienced the humiliation of the failed utopia, but have not felt the physical pain of losses.
Still, I would add, that main rascals who commited crimes in 1941-43 in Russia escaped the Russian punishment and saved their asses in the West. The poor youngest naive and patriotic Hitlerjugend boys who never were in Eastern Front were pushed to contain Russian wave and cover the backs of fleeing westward rats, to die or serve their 5 years in Siberia later.

Germans never experienced it? Are you serious? 3 million German civilians were killed in the east, and a further 15 million forced from their homes and lands their families had lived on for hundreds of years. How is what happened to them any less of a crime than what happened to the Russians?

By your logic, all Russians are guilty for crimes committed in Afghanistan, and Chechnya for example.