Think about.

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I honestly don't know what to think on the issue of past German militarism in general, and Nazism in particular. My thoughts go all over the place, and will seem to ramble. That's unavoidable. I'm going to express them anyway.

Could it happen again? Right now, Germany seems eminently civilized, peaceful, a wholly admirable nation and people. But didn't the Germans seem much the same in the 1920s?

On the other hand -- in the 1920s, democracy was a new experiment in Germany that a lot of people were uncomfortable with. My own belief is that democracy only becomes solid in a country once a whole generation have grown up and come of age under it. That never had a chance to happen under Weimar, but it has under the Bundesrepublik. Surely that will make a difference?

Germany also suffered horribly during and after World War II. Whole cities such as Cologne and Dresden were bombed into oblivion (and not even with nuclear weapons, just massive incendiary bombing). Atrocities were committed by occupying Allied troops, especially the Soviets. The country was divided and occupied for decades. (Still is occupied actually -- when are we bringing our troops home from there? ) This leaves an impression on a people; either they thirst for revenge, or they recognize that their own militarism (or that of their ancestors) caused this response (without excusing it) and resolve not to let it happen again. The first occurred after World War I, the second appears to have happened after World War II.

I have a hard time believing in German military incompetence. The tradition of military excellence is too old and too ingrained in German culture for that to come easily. Even Hitler never dared cross the military, which is one reason for the early German victories in World War II. I think I do believe in German pacifism, though -- up to a point. I don't think anyone would be well-advised to invade the country, however.

If I could be granted a wish, it would be that neither the Holocaust nor the establishment of Israel had ever happened. The first was a hideous crime, the second an international tragedy that has led to nothing but trouble. And it is very questionable whether the second would have happened without the first.

In answer to the thread question: German responsibility to Jews, to the extent Germany has any special responsibility, is to ensure that nothing like the Holocaust is ever done by Germans again. That is also a responsibility of Germany to Germans. But although Germany may arguably have a special responsibility towards Jews, it has none towards Israel.

You'll have to help me out, because I do not see how the youtube video posted helps your point.

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Success is measured in blood; yours or your enemy's.

Good post, TSGracchus.
But I don´t think a diversion can be made between Israel and Jews, for it is the country of Israel, which has an enormous meaning for the religious identification.
Also I agree with your implication, that the middle-east conflict wouldn´t be the same if the holocaust would never have been committed in the first place. But it is as it is: the history of wars created the political map as we know it today. No sense in trying to revolve any historical events because immediately the question would raise: where is the overall accepted starting point? WW I? The Roman Empire? No way, one has to deal with the facts.


As you can imagine it´s quite hard for Germans to take a critical position in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict without getting a feeling of abandoning your obligatory loyalty towards the Jews.
The simple way out of it is: the Israeli State is in charge in that conflict and whatever goes wrong in that area is to their responsibility. The harder way is to talk to both Israelis and Palestinians and get a glimpse of their reasoning and motivations of politics.
I spent a year in Israel and I got an impression of the different arguments brought in by Israelis and Palestinians.

What does annoy me is the arrogant way of being pacifistic shared by many of my fellow germans. It´s quite easy to condemn military actions as a German, for all the dirty work in order to protect Germany was done by others, mainly the US. It was easy to say "We don´t like war and will never allow German soldiers to participate in any war again" as long as others did. For sure, the US had a big deal of self-interest in protecting Europe against the USSR but still it happened to the advantage of Germans. That´s what many people forget when condemning the USA. Of course, you don´t have to approve the US foreign policy in every issue because they once used to be good to us, but at least as a German you owe not to forget the support we got from there.

And if one never experienced the everyday threat of life existing in Israel, he shouldn´t be too fast in judging by the means of black and white. Palestinians=freedom fighters and Isrealis=bad boys doesn´t meet the facts. Typically, reality is too complicated and good arguments are pleaded by both sides.
It´s the typical bias to simplify in order to make life simple. But you won´t get to veracity this way.
But still, that´s the impression I get from my fellow Germans.

well I ran across this in the journal today and it appears by the articles quotes etc. that the germans to a third at least do not feel particularly happy with or responsible for Israel.
Back lash over holocaust guilt?

Comments?


German War Guilt and the Jewish State
By DANIEL SCHWAMMENTHAL
May 14, 2008; Page A19

As Israel celebrates its 60th anniversary there is no denying that the Jewish state has an image problem in Europe.

Opinion polls in the U.S. consistently show that a majority of Americans are sympathetic to Israel. But the situation is the reverse on the other side of the Atlantic. It's particularly bad in Germany. In a British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) survey last month, for example, Germans were among the Europeans with the least favorable views of Israel, second only to Spain. Even the respondents in the United Arab Emirates had a more positive perception of the Jewish state than Germans did.

This may be surprising, given that Berlin is considered one of Israel's more reliable allies in Europe. Successive German governments have justified the "special" relationship with Israel by pointing to the countries' "special" history. In light of the Holocaust, Germany seems to have no choice but to support the Jewish state. Former Green Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer advocated this policy of "historical responsibility" as effortlessly as Christian-Democratic Chancellor Angela Merkel does.

But guilt is an unhealthy basis for a relationship; it easily turns into resentment. This may help explain why so many Germans – 30% according to last year's survey by Bertelsmann Foundation – are eager to compare Israel to fascist Germany. If it were true that Israelis are modern-day Nazis, there would be less reason to feel guilty about the real Nazis.

Historical obligations also tend to have a statute of limitations. Postwar Germans may reasonably reject any special obligations to Israel as a result of crimes committed before they were born.

This brings us to the fundamental problem with Berlin's Israel policy. It implies that had there been no Holocaust, Israel would have no right to exist or, at least would have no reason to expect Germany's support. Israel's detractors take this argument one step further, claiming it was immoral to establish a Jewish state in the Middle East to atone for European crimes.

In 1922, long before the Holocaust, Winston Churchill debunked the idea that Israel could be justified only as reparation for past atrocities when he said, "The Jews are in Palestine by right and not by sufferance." Europe and Germany should thus be able to support Israel not just because of past wrongs committed against Jews, but because of Jews' inalienable right to a state in their ancestral homeland.

Israel's right to exist doesn't mean Germans must automatically back it. There has to be a special bond between nations to prompt support. Such alliances are usually forged around common interests and values. As the Mideast's most vibrant democracy, Israel should qualify for a truly "special relationship."

But unlike Americans, Germans rarely argue that Israel deserves solidarity as a Western ally. Americans generally see Israel as a fellow democracy under attack. But in Germany and much of Europe, Israel is often seen as a human-rights violator.

What explains this difference in perceptions? The U.S. media are not that much better in presenting a balanced view of the Middle East than their European counterparts. More likely, Americans are simply less disposed to believe the worst of Israel.

A key factor is Americans' appreciation of their Judeo-Christian heritage. While this is a common term in the U.S., it is a novel concept in Europe. Only recently has it found its way into the vocabulary of a few conservative Germans. Ms. Merkel and colleagues from Poland and Italy wanted to add a reference to the Continent's Judeo-Christian heritage to Europe's proposed constitution. The idea was rejected as too divisive.

But the term does not just cover the moral standards shared by Judaism and Christianity. Its meaning goes beyond matters of faith. It describes the fact that next to the Greco-Roman heritage, the Judeo-Christian tradition is the other main pillar of Western civilization. Acknowledging this fact helps Americans view Jews as part of that civilization and the Jewish state as part of the broader Western alliance.

In post-Christian Europe and Germany, this realization is largely missing. Moses's law, the foundation for Western legal codes and moral values, is hardly acknowledged on the Continent. Jews are more often seen as having contributed to Western civilization, rather than being an integral part of it, thanks to the role they played as a nation. Jews – often viewed as some kind of guest contributors – thus remain strangers in Europe, as does the Jewish state. And one can be inclined to believe bad things about strangers.

Given the similar threats Europe and Israel face from Islamic terror and a nuclear Iran, an alliance between them would seem natural. But as long as Europe's public considers Israel more as part of the problem than as part of the solution, any alliance will suffer. It's time for German and European officials to make the real case for Israel – that of solidarity with an embattled ally.

German War Guilt and the Jewish State - WSJ.com

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile....

You're thinking I'm fighting for my point of view? Why should I? I looked for an answer and I found this film of a young german with a very good feeling for the real situation. Where we are? What do we know? What went wrong? Why we are doing it? What's right, what's wrong? What means this all? Are we all giving the right answers? On which questions? What we are missing? But wasn't there an answer existing before? ...

(Oh - by the way: I made a mistake. Americans killed 3 million people in Vietnam and not 2 million - I forgot to count the killed soldiers too)

World Trade Center Enya - Only Time - MyVideo

Who can say
where the road goes
where the day flows
- only time

And who can say
if your love grows
as your heart chose
- only time

Who can say
why your heart sighs
as your love flies
- only time

And who can say
why your heart cries
when your love lies
- only time

Who can say
when the roads meet
that love might be
in your heart

And who can say
when the day sleeps
if the night keeps
all your heart

Night keeps all your heart

YouTube - Bundeswehr - Nachdenkliche Minuten!

Who can say
if your love grows
as your heart chose
- only time

And who can say
where the road goes
where the day flows
- only time

Who knows - only time
Who knows - only time

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Not only this - the most people in Germany see the main reason for the Holocaust in the catholic church and Pope Pius XII is seen of lots of people like a war criminal. Nearly no one worldwide fought against this communistic propagandisms - specially not in the jewish world, the anglo-saxon world and the USA.

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

A good question to ask Germans who support Israel out of a sense of atonement is the following:

"So you want to atone for Nazi war crimes against Jews by funding, supporting and defending the Zionist war crimes being committed by Israel against the Palestinians?"

Always a good question to ask such people...

Where's what question? That's only an antisemitic statement - that's all.

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Does this mean that UN Special Rapporteur and International Court of Justice Ad Hoc judge Dr. John Dugard is an "anti-semite?" He has cited Israel for war crimes on numerous occasions; for example:

So is Dr. Dugard an "anti-semite?" He accused Israel of committing "war crimes;" are his stated legal observations "anti-semitic statements?"

No - I said you are an antisemite. Maybe it's interesting for you to hear and read this:

Testimony at the UN - UN Watch

Search - UN Watch

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Because I merely accused Israel of doing the same thing Dr. Dugard accused them of doing? You do understand that my question is valid since Israel has and is committing war crimes?

You are asking no question.

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

What does this have to do with the validity of my question? Surely you do not suggest that I should dismiss the UN Special Rapporteur reports of John Dugard, Giorgio Giacomelli and Hannu Halinen because UN Watch presents some emotionally charged Youtube videos about a 3 minute debate at the UN?

Here is the question I pose to any German who supports Israel out of a sense of atonement for the hollowcost:

"So you want to atone for Nazi war crimes against Jews by funding, supporting and defending the Zionist war crimes being committed by Israel against the Palestinians?"