Being American, I suppose You do have some connections with the American history. All the achievements reached throughout American history still have impacts on cultural and national identification.
Same with Germany, however here the focus is drawn mainly on the dark chapters of our past.
Although I personally am guilty in no way, still I share the responsibility of heritage of the country I live in and I identify with. In my opinion, everyone identifying with his/her country has to take the whole package of history, not just pick out the events of the past one can be proud of.

You cant choose what country you are born in. As long as you dont support the wrong policies of history or take pride in them, or act the same way in the present or the future, then I dont see a need for todays people to feel responsible for the past actions of their country.

__________________
http://www.fairtax.org

Elminate all taxes on income and replace with a national sales tax.

Right, jviehe.
But the way politics are done in a political system, the rules of legislating, the impossibility to get a majority to support certain policies etc. are -especially in the German case- an outcome of the countryīs history and the lessons learned from it.
So in my opinion past and present canīt just chronically be seperated but the former has quite its influence on the latter.

Without knowing the failures of the past and what caused those in the first place, you canīt be aware of the present distresses which might yield the same results again. So, I feel the obligation to be aware and to accept the responsibility. Not to my disadvantage anyway, for I donīt feel guilty or see myself as a citizen of a bad country. Itīs just, that my education -as regarding being German- gave me a certain attention to behaviour similar to those who stroke humanity 70 years ago.
Thatīs about it.
On the other hand: if every nation or ethnic group had cleared up their historical wrongdoing as did the nowadays German generation, then to me it seems plausible, that the chance of violent conflicts diminishes over time.

Did you read the links I provided?

This is not true; suicide bombing raids were used by the Japanese in WWII and were even utilised by the Sinhalese when resisting the British in 1700-1800's.

I am sure many Jewish people worldwide were dancing in the streets when Nazi Germany was laid in ruins by the allies and why do you think this would be the case? The United States also funded the Israeli murder of Palestinians and one cannot expect angry Palestinian victims of Israeli aggression to weep for the dead citizens of a nation that has helped oppress their people.

And you say that as Israel sucks billions of dollars in loan guarantees from your government?

No

Wrong point - see: palestinian fedayeen -> suicide bombers

Most Jews were to exhausted in this days - but nearly the whole world was dancing. And everyone who danced was right. But it is a very good and clever idea from you to do it every year now in this way. "Dancing in the ruins" will be a hit in Germany. Thanks for this idea.

It's always the same stupidity. Everyone in the world knows that Americans are always driving very nervous and they are always overreacting. Would be interesting to know what the background of Osama Bin Laden and his gang really was. Who were this stupid ignorants? Hope I'm living long enough to get this answer one day.

__________________


Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Then why don't you read them and while you are at it take a look at Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions; even a "combatant" can be deemed a protected person should he not be taking part in hostility.

Right point since suicide bombings were taking place long before the Palestinians were first butchered by the Zionist marauders.

I thought most Jews were holocausted? Don't answer that; the Bolsheviks who run your nation may throw your rear end in the dungeon if you answer that question with even an inkling of political incorrectness though I doubt you would do so. However, you do understand why people may dance when an oppressor is hit and hit hard?

I am sure the legions of German women who were raped by the allies and the refugees in Dresden who were incinerated in a criminal bombing raids deserved what they got huh? However, I will note that you do not object to people dancing when oppressors are attacked...at least oppressors who do not serve Israeli interests anyway.

According to you it was alright for the world to dance when legions of Germans were killed in the name of stopping an evil oppressor so why does this standard not apply to the Palestinians who danced when one of their evil oppressors was hit to a much lesser extent? Hey folks; like America or not the United States has protected Israel at the UN and funded their campaign of colonialism...fair question.

Youre assuming I agree with this? And that many other countries dont likewise get plenty of funding with us.

__________________
http://www.fairtax.org

Elminate all taxes on income and replace with a national sales tax.

I'm not interested in Nazi-propagandisms and I'm not interested that someone is telling me a steel bush is getting fawns.


About 4000 Arabs lived in 186x in Jerusalem. Nearly no one cared about. And now millions of Arabs are living in the area? Laughable in some cases. A lots of Germans lost their homelands after World War I and World War II and no one thinks about anymore. We have very nice hospitals for people, which are not able to see the reality of the facts.

You thought? Is this something to eat?

Too late.

1918? Bavarians opressed from Jews? I'm a bavarian, dear idiot mine, and I have some jewish ancestors too.

Palestinian children danced in the streets after 9/11 because they were full of joy about the death of lots of human beings. Let me take one name: Jeffrey Grant Goldflam, 48, Melville, N.Y. - hope I'm not hurting people but I need a concrete name because I hate abstrahotisms. Why were palestinian children full of joy that he died?

see also: Guest Book - Jeffrey Grant Goldflam

Lots. Min. 20000 women in Berlin did suicide for example. It were raped and killed lots of women. A lot of female children in the age of 12-15 years were sold as slaves in Russia.

Dresden was a war crime. So what? You are a Nazi and that's a problem. Dresden is no problem.

Did you look for a price list of cheap exchange brains?

Seems for me you like to kill millions of Americans but perhaps - maybe - if I think about a little - it can be that Americans don't like to be killed from idiots like you. What will you do in this case? Suicide bombing?

__________________


Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[quote=TSGracchus;1216451]I honestly don't know what to think on the issue of past German militarism in general, and Nazism in particular. My thoughts go all over the place, and will seem to ramble. That's unavoidable. I'm going to express them anyway.

Could it happen again? Right now, Germany seems eminently civilized, peaceful, a wholly admirable nation and people. But didn't the Germans seem much the same in the 1920s?


Definitely not.
in the twenties nearly 40 percent of the Germans were jobless. They were still conditioned to obey authorities blindly. Merely the Social Democrats and the Communists wanted change, the former into democracy the latter wanted to integrate Germany into Russia and they used violence. Political murders were daily occurences. The resulting fear and anger was used by Hitler and consorts to gain power.
The Centrum, equivalent to the US GOP did nothing to stop them, in fact, most members of that party joined Hitlers mob.
Nothing peaceful or civilized in that aera.


On the other hand -- in the 1920s, democracy was a new experiment in Germany that a lot of people were uncomfortable with. My own belief is that democracy only becomes solid in a country once a whole generation have grown up and come of age under it. That never had a chance to happen under Weimar, but it has under the Bundesrepublik. Surely that will make a difference?


Quite right.


Germany also suffered horribly during and after World War II. Whole cities such as Cologne and Dresden were bombed into oblivion (and not even with nuclear weapons, just massive incendiary bombing). Atrocities were committed by occupying Allied troops, especially the Soviets. The country was divided and occupied for decades. (Still is occupied actually -- when are we bringing our troops home from there? ) This leaves an impression on a people; either they thirst for revenge, or they recognize that their own militarism (or that of their ancestors) caused this response (without excusing it) and resolve not to let it happen again. The first occurred after World War I, the second appears to have happened after World War II.


Not quite.
It was expansionism that drove Hitler, not revenge. Essentially he wanted the same as his successors in the US, the Neocons :
world dominance.


I have a hard time believing in German military incompetence. The tradition of military excellence is too old and too ingrained in German culture for that to come easily. Even Hitler never dared cross the military, which is one reason for the early German victories in World War II. I think I do believe in German pacifism, though -- up to a point. I don't think anyone would be well-advised to invade the country, however.


Todays german army cannot be compared to the one in Kaisers or Hitlers time.
no more blind obeism, in fact, soldiers are requested by law to report superiors who try to install old habits again.
As for an invasion be assured the germans would defend their freedom.


If I could be granted a wish, it would be that neither the Holocaust nor the establishment of Israel had ever happened. The first was a hideous crime, the second an international tragedy that has led to nothing but trouble. And it is very questionable whether the second would have happened without the first.


Now here is something a Rabbi told me some 40 years ago.
In 1916 the german army had nailed down the French and the Brits were practically beaten as well.Two more years of a purely european war and the Kaiser would have ruled all of Europe.
Palestine was still occupied by the French and the Brits.
Then a group of Zionists came to London. Among them the Rabbi mentioned above.
They told the Brits, the USA could be drawn into the war and a lost cause upturned. Their condition was that Palestine would be given to the Zionists.
The Brits agreed instantly.
The same group then went to Washington and blackmailed Wilson, who was actually german-friendly, into helping the Brits by stating, they would withdraw all jewish money from the USA thus creating a recession that would cripple the USA permanently.
Wilson had no choice, so the USA entered the war and Germany and Austria were finally defeated.
This action is also what brought about hatred for Jews in normally tolerant Germans.

In answer to the thread question: German responsibility to Jews, to the extent Germany has any special responsibility, is to ensure that nothing like the Holocaust is ever done by Germans again. That is also a responsibility of Germany to Germans. But although Germany may arguably have a special responsibility towards Jews, it has none towards Israel.


No German, not even the few Neo-nazis want to kill Jews or anyone else for that matter. But the latter take offense on some zionist actions, that most Germans simply ignore.
To this day Israel (mark: not THE Jews) keeps trying to press money from Germany. As most of that money is used to buy or produce weapons, Germany has finally set an end to the "repair" payments.
Still the "Jewish world council" screams anti-semitism once a week.
Yet Germany has good relations with ALL semitic states (all Arabs are Semites).
But would the JWC scream "anti-zionism" (that being what they really protest) they would give their game away.

I have a lot of REAL jewish friends and they all agree on the above. They fly to Israel, visit the wailing wall and take the next flight home. Not one of them wants to stay in Israel.

__________________
A working manīs hero is something to be.
If you want to be a hero then just follow me.

J.Lennon

About 4000 Arabs lived in 186x in Jerusalem. Nearly no one cared about. And now millions of Arabs are living in the area? Laughable in some cases. A lots of Germans lost their homelands after World War I and World War II and no one thinks about anymore. We have very nice hospitals for people, which are not able to see the reality of the facts.


Jerusalem was and is a holy city to Islam next to Mecca and Medina.
It was definitely cared for very much by the Arabs. In 1860 about 16000 people lived there, as many as in Nuremberg of that time. In 1900 the population was 43000 and nearly pure arabic. Significant numbersof Jews and Zionist arrived only after 1932.


Bavarians opressed from Jews? I'm a bavarian, dear idiot mine, and I have some jewish ancestors too.


If you really had jewish ancestors, you would state :"I am a Jew" no more, no less.
But you prefer to pretend to be someone you obviously are not. Matter of fact, I donīt believe the bavarian bit either. To me you definitely appear austrian.
From Braunau by any chance ?



Palestinian children danced in the streets after 9/11 because they were full of joy about the death of lots of human beings. Let me take one name: Jeffrey Grant Goldflam, 48, Melville, N.Y. - hope I'm not hurting people but I need a concrete name because I hate abstrahotisms. Why were palestinian children full of joy that he died?


They danced because their parents told them to.
Children are unable to understand atrocities of such a dimension. You ought to know that or were you born a grown-up.



Lots. Min. 20000 women in Berlin did suicide for example. It were raped and killed lots of women. A lot of female children in the age of 12-15 years were sold as slaves in Russia.


Prove that !!!
Some suicides happened but your exaggerations are plainly ridiculous.
And slaves sold to Russia ? To a communist country ?
Anybody holding a slave in Russia would have been shot or hanged on the spot.
Try to stick to reality at least on and off.



Dresden was a war crime. So what? You are a Nazi and that's a problem. Dresden is no problem.


Calling others Nazis is, given your posts here and in other threads, an absolute insolence. Come to grips.


Did you look for a price list of cheap exchange brains?


Why ? Do you need one ?



Seems for me you like to kill millions of Americans but perhaps - maybe - if I think about a little - it can be that Americans don't like to be killed from idiots like you. What will you do in this case? Suicide bombing?


Are you sure you donīt have hemmorhoids on your lips ? How can anyone write or voice such crap.
Better go back to Kindergarten, you missed all of the education normal people get.
Donīt worry, itīs free.

__________________
A working manīs hero is something to be.
If you want to be a hero then just follow me.

J.Lennon

I agree with the bullshit. Applies to all your posts.
Fact:
12 percent of the german army personal are female, rate increasing.
Not able to defend a molehill ?
theyīd refuse to defend it if the mole was you.

Now name one single german who said, Germany should defend Israel.
And the israeli army would accomplish in one or two weeks what took half the world five full years ?

Pray tell us:
What do you have instead of brain ?

__________________
A working manīs hero is something to be.
If you want to be a hero then just follow me.

J.Lennon

Do you really believe this crap ?
That guy is definitely NOT german. the way he writes he can only be austrian.
Like Hitler, Eichmann and Schwarzenegger.
This guy is -at best- a german hater.

__________________
A working manīs hero is something to be.
If you want to be a hero then just follow me.

J.Lennon

Definitely NOT a-knob-shitter

Please forgive when I resort to name-calling with this guy.
But you have experienced his braindead rubbish yourself.
Itīs hard to stay calm with morons like him.

__________________
A working manīs hero is something to be.
If you want to be a hero then just follow me.

J.Lennon

It is good that Germans don't feel guilt over what NAZI Germany did to the Jewish people. Likewise I wish Americans followed that example and felt no guilt over slavery.