You should not forget that most germans think americans don't have any idea about what war really is. And they are right! - uups ? Ah yes - I'm a german

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

For the people in Asia, it is difficult to understand. In the moral world of east asian people (China, korea, Japan, etc.), if one refuses to defend his motherland, then he becomes a ignominious deserter and traitor, and it's also a disrepute for his family.

Your entitled to your view, the only question I have is on what expierences/knowledge your base that view on???

Your own ( rather typical unpatriotic) German selfhatred?

Our army can't be that bad, as otherwise our allies wouldn't ask us to serve with them around the world.

Truely a military expert talking


Antisemitic?? Haven't read any comments about killing/hating jews so how can this topic be antisemitic??

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"bellum omnium contra omnes; atque in eo bello jus esse omnibus in omnia."
Thomas Hobbes

"Homo Homini Lupus"
Thomas Hobbes

Why should today's German citizens feel guilt over things that happened almost 70 years ago? As an American I don't feel guilt over slavery that happened 150 years ago.

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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to
change it." -- Barack Obama

Depends what you understand if you are using the word "guilty" - if you mean 'to feel ones own responsibility in the eyes of god' than it's absolutely no problem. There are a lot of open questions and for sure the history of the years 1933-1945 is not finished today.

But how do you feel about Vietnam for example? Take a look at this pictures ('Die Opfer von "Agent Orange"' means "The vcitims of Agent Orange")

Dioxin-Opfer: Das giftige Erbe des Vietnamkrieges - Wissenschaft - stern.de

(Here's another page with some english comments: Fotos of American Vietnam War -- Fotos des amerikanischen Vietnamkriegs )

In Vietnam war 2.000.000 Vietnamese people were killed from american soldiers. 3.000.000 Vietnamese are suffering today.

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Sorry, but I haven't the slightest pangs of guilt for actions that I took no part in.

PS- The Vietnamese people are suffering because we left before the job was done - but that is best discussed in another thread...

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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to
change it." -- Barack Obama

Most US-americans seem not to feel "guilty" = responsible. But in the reality the causes of the deeds in the war in Vietnam are producing nevertheless today very big problems. So it seems the human kind of thinking and feeling is not compatible to the reality in this case. This maybe means the death of all mankind, if all people in the world would think in the same way. In general irrealistic and truthless beings are not able to survive and it seems for me most human beings in the world are reconstructing themselves in this way. Nearly no one in this world seems to feel responsible anymore, specially not the rich and mighty.

I don't discuss this. The war in Vietnam was wrong and the Americans stopped this war against the will of the political leaders of the USA. A great victory for all mankind.

But the USA seems on the other hand to be very ignorant to all real problems in the world and it seems for me sometimes it is only living in its own psychologic clusters like a drugster - if no one feels responsible for no deeds in no world, the world cannot be a "better place". And for sure it will not be a "better place" if senseless wars are striking on and on and on again.

My forefathers saw a lot of senseless wars and a lot of empires of wrong proudness pass away in the stream of the times. And now I'm watching the empires of the world and I ask myself why they are taking themselves so serios. It's crazy how many words all nations are giving for the fact, that thay don't like to do anything to see the real problems of the world and to fight against the real problems. One of this real problems in the moment for example is called h-u-n-g-e-r, hunger. Another one is called biodiversity. And there are a lots of problems in the world uninterested people can ignore. But no one can ignore reality in the end.

The people in the world are killing this planet like the inhabitans of the Easter Island killed the life on this Island and died themselves after they killed it. I hate all this crazy kinds of extended suicides, because perhaps our planet is the only planet of life in the whole universe. God will never forgive if we kill this planet.

Crazy mankind - really a very crazy mankind. Where help is needed nearly no one helps, and where some money lies on the ground it seems to waste the earth like cancer. The USA has billions of Dollars to do wars - but it has no money for to fight against its own dioxines in Vietnam? How - for heavens sake - dioxines are hurting and killing people and no one is responsible for? 'Dioxines are a natural power' says Uncle Sarcasms alias 'Mr. Agent Orange'?

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

A great woman died: Irena Sendler. She never had a reason to feel 'guilty'. No one should be satisfied who understands really what this woman did - and whoever thinks he is a hero because he killed people should think about another kind of hero the world needs so very urgent. Take a look at her life here: In Memory of Irena Sendler

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I'm glad to see your this comment on that mad german.

In my opinion, Germany does not need to continue carrying the guilt for what happended 60 years ago. What is important, however, is for Germany (and the rest of the world) to allow and have open and frank dialogues about what happended, along with the causes. Only through educating ourselves on historical mistakes can we best ensure they are not repeated.

It sounds good what you are saying, but on the other hand it makes not really sense. You should not believe what the people of 'good will' which are fighting for a 'better world' are saying to you. We are all just sinners.

In the years 1618-1648 the worst european war ever - much more worse than world war II - happened in Germany and 50-70% of all Germans died in this war. Nearly no one is discussing about and everyone forgot. It was completly clear since this days, that it was not anymore possible to do wars, because the technical equipment bore a new kind of inhumanity. But the people forgot and they remember today also not very well.

This dicussion about 'guilt' of Germans is a completly wrong nazistic and uninteresting discussion. To discuss about means concrete to believe in the kind of lies Hitler himself created, that were very 'sophisticated'. In the end it is wrong not to discuss about as it is not wrong to discuss about. Both ways are wrong and right in the same time.

The people which felt guilty were in lots of cases the people which 'fought' against Hitler. The feeling is in general "We did not enough against him and his criminals" - and this is a real feeling and not a wrong feeling. It was not enough and it is right to feel this guilt. But unfortunatley the wrong people feel often guilty. I think one should be a member of a christian church to discuss in this context really about guilt or no guilt. Without christianity there are no solutions for no one in this case. But a lot of people don't believe in a christian way in god and they don't feel responsible in the eyes of god. I never met a German who says 'Stop discussions about guilt' who feels really guilty. The most people, which are discussing in this way are only believing in conspiracy theories. It's a very short step from conspiracy theories to a scapegoats killing. That is always a very big danger.

The real Nazis don't felt guilty, never - they don't even know, what this word means. Even if some mass-murderers are arrested with 80 or 90 years and they had time for decades to think about their deeds, they never felt guilty.

But another part of this discussions in the international context is the view "Germans have to learn to kill again." Specially in times where in the USA some nazilike theories like PNAC are produced and worked out in some 'think tanks' (what a stupid word - an unbelievable stupid word - should be named 'sinking tanks') there is a very big danger in discussions like this. The international pressure on Germany is very high to kill - like all killers of all armies in the world people are killing in Afghanistan. It's the typically way how the Mafia is thinking. If you like to be in the inner circle you must be a murderer too. So nearly the whole world says today: no one should feel 'guilty' anymore about the times between 1933-1945 as Al Capone never felt guilty when he used a machine gun without sense.

Indeed Germany for example is not doing a war of defense in Afghanistan, because no Afghans and no Taliban ever attacked Germany, Europe or the USA. Europe and the USA also were never attacked from the poeple of the Iraq too. Something is going very wrong in the moment in worldwide politics and history - and all discussions Germans should not feel 'guilty' are ignoring just simple for example that concentration camps are existing today. Guantanamo for example is one - and it seems the most americans don't like to see the truth in front of their eyes as the most Germans don't like to see the truth in front of their eyes too. Just open your eyes and you will feel 'guilty' yourself - and if you are accepting this as a normal way of a human being you can reach some independence in your thoughts, that hopefully is helping in the end all people of mankind and all life in the universe, because to feel 'guilty' means often nothing else, than to live in a very high respect of each and every life.

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

I have to disagree. My experience with the Bundeswehr has been very positive. I found them to be quite capable and very professional.

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To the meaningless French idealisms of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, we present the German realities of Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery. - Prince Bernhard Heinrich Karl Martin von Bülow

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

your point?

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To the meaningless French idealisms of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, we present the German realities of Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery. - Prince Bernhard Heinrich Karl Martin von Bülow

I think (especially young) people in Germany should recognize the dark era in their history no longer just as a burden and an unpleasent memory of the horror carried out in the name of the country they were accidently born into and they identify with. But rather they should start to realize that this burden can be transformed into the chance to be more aware of the tendencies to maltreatment of fundamental human rights both around the world and down the street.

I don´t think that guilt and responsibility equals, but for me guilt is a personal issue. I do feel guilty if I personally did something wrong. So - for the fact that I wasn´t born yet - I´m definitively not guilty in bringing any input to the crimes committed to the Jews by Germans that time.
But as a German I do feel the responsibility of being aware of my country´s history. Though I don´t feel bad or guilty in that sense I accept history and try to learn from it. Basically, what history with reference to the Holocaust discloses to me is the fact, that "civilized humans" can turn into mere evil under certain circumstances. And that´s what I believe is the most important aspect to keep in mind: There´s no such thing as philanthropy if it comes to the socially accepted dismissal of any cultural, religious or legal constraint of the "beast" in the human nature. But that´s off topic.

In my opinion the figures indicating Germans not to have a big deal of stake in defending Israel if it comes to war are not of great substance to the question of German-Israeli relationship. If at all, the number could deliver some information if compared to the results of the same question asked regarding other countries: How many Germans would be willing to defend the U.S. in case of war?
There are so many other inputs in one´s attitude concerning participating in a war that a single conclusion like "Germans don´t care about Israel" is far too simplifying.

I had the chance of meeting people from many countries and discussed the "German issue" quite a few times. Fortunately I can say that in the present-day generation there´s no real cleavage along countries or nations but rather along the educational level of the people.
Simple people believe in simple answers. Thinking in categories of black and white makes the overwhelming and difficult reality rather manageable even if completely wrong.
The first idea of Germany from people all over the world often is associated with Hitler and Nazism. To get rid of that Germans must be very clear that it´s not their fault and in my opinion that´s the reason for the growing attitude of Germans not to be bothered by the crimes of the Nazis any more.
Unfortunately the same argument is raised in order to forget about the whole period.
I hope and believe that Germans in the future don´t feel personally offended or bothered any more when the talk comes to Nazis and the moral heritage of Germany today but rather accept it as a part of history which impact will be important far into the future. The chance of recurrence of such a horror by whatsoever means would be far more likely if it wouldn´t be kept in mind.
So, to put it succinctly: don´t feel guilty but take the responsibility in reminding what Germans did during the Nazi regime and what humans are capable of doing everywhere.