Originally Posted by Traveler

And Bush still got pretty much what he wanted, the system works!

Originally Posted by Traveler

And like Jviehe said, Bush had to get the Patriot Act through Congress, Chavez would never have that ability.

Originally Posted by drgoodtrips

Really? Bush is nothing if not vain - I don't imagine a 20-some percent approval rating and an almost certain relegation to the bottom tier of POTUS legacy is what he wanted. I'd also venture to say that he got used to the unquestioning approval of most of his actions prior to wasting his political capital on the Iraq mess. He definitely did not seem to enjoy his cronyism being brought to light or questioned facing an increasing inability to obfuscate in the face of scrutiny.

Had Bush gotten what he wanted, don't you think that Iraq adventure would have gone as promised, what with the wreaths and flowers being thrown at the feet of the troops once the six month war was over? Shouldn't the Domino effect be working well by now, with Iran, Syria and other ME actors now supporting democracies? This was the vision of his "neocon" cabinet, and the vision that he bought into for whatever reason.

Originally Posted by Traveler

I meant in relation to national security and the legislation help protect us, i.e. the Patriot Act etc, he has most of what he wanted.

Originally Posted by Imperator

then I suggest you get out more.

Originally Posted by Traveler

Yup i completely agree about it being his executive power, which is fine for me because i trust him and think he will be one the greatest presidents we ever had when history judges him.

If a Dem came in (other than Hillary) they would try and rollback the privellages of the Patriot act. Not a problem too much as a lot of the non sunset based provisions can't be undone.

What Chavez did is to effectively take his country in a banana assed dictatorship where he feels like he's some free liberating Anti-American soclialist.

Bush used the system we already have in place to get surveillance legislation he wanted, and that shows an immense ability to get things achieved to me.

Originally Posted by Traveler

No i have an objection to Hugo taking his country into a dictatorship, if they had freedom to speak, the freedom of the press, the right to vote in free multi-party elections then the legislation he got through would be notable.

It would also help if he had a democratically elected legislature.

Originally Posted by Donkey_Left

Um... I'm in Ecuador right now... I'm the one who needs to get out more?

Originally Posted by Imperator

and you're in ecuador.....okay I give up......

Originally Posted by Donkey_Left

Lol... the armchair revolutionary I was referring to was my first roommate at college who also happened to sit in front of me in my Modern Middle East history course.

He's rather a bore.

But yeah, I'm in Ecuador. Cool, eh?

Originally Posted by drgoodtrips

Well, if you're talking to me personally, the semantics game doesn't really interest me. If you're going to claim that Bush was a bystander and that he wasn't given a lot of rubber stamp latitude in the aftermath of 9/11 by Congress et. al, I'll stipulate the technical accuracy of your argument and take for granted the silliness of it in reality, allowing the discussion to move forward. And, for what it's worth, I don't think that Bush and Chavez are comparable, but not because Bush wouldn't want the power Chavez can access. Dubya certainly did his best while in office to expand the scope of the executive to cut through the "red tape" of checks and balances. Hugo is just in an environment with a less educated/savvy populace regarding civil liberties and doesn't have the same deeply entrenched checks to power that Dubya does. We could speculate as to whether or not Bush, given that kind of opportunity to power, would take it. My opinion is an unequivocal "yes he would", but again, that's speculation. In terms of the desire for unilateral power, I see little difference, though Chavez certainly seems like more of a blowhard and drama queen than Bush.