New totalitarian measures from Saint Hugo - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

MattLarson · #1 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

Quote:

CARACAS, Venezuela: President Hugo Chávez has used his decree powers to carry out a major overhaul of this country's intelligence agencies, provoking a fierce backlash here from human rights groups and legal scholars who say the measures will force citizens to inform on one another to avoid prison terms.

Under the new intelligence law, which took effect last week, Venezuela's two main intelligence services, the DISIP secret police and the DIM military intelligence agency, will be replaced with new agencies, the General Intelligence Office and General Counterintelligence Office, under the control of Chávez.

The new law requires people in the country to comply with requests to assist the agencies, secret police or community activist groups loyal to Chávez. Refusal can result in prison terms of two to four years for most people and four to six years for government employees.

"We are before a set of measures that are a threat to all of us," said Blanca Rosa Mármol de León, a justice on Venezuela's top court, in a rare public judicial dissent. "I have an obligation to say this, as a citizen and a judge. This is a step toward the creation of a society of informers."

And:

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This is the most scandalous effort to intimidate the population in the 10 years this government has been in power," said Rocío San Miguel, a prominent legal scholar who heads a non-governmental organization that monitors Venezuelan security and defense issues.

San Miguel said information her group had collected could be deemed illegal under the new law. The group has data from military sources showing that Chávez's efforts to create a force of 1 million reservists had fallen far short.

"Under the new law, this information could be considered a threat to national security and I could be sent immediately to jail," she said. "Effectively this is a way to instill fear in NGOs and news organizations and parts of society that remain outside the government's reach."

Chávez decree tightens hold on intelligence - International Herald Tribune

So, if you criticize the Dear Leader, you go to prison.

If your neighbor harbors unkind thoughts about the dear leader, you must inform on him, or go to prison.

So, for all those who denied that Chavez was headed for dictatorship, how do you like your crow? Braised, broiled, curried or pan-fried?

Matt

Donkey_Left · #2 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

Yeah I saw this on the BBC earlier today. Pretty disgraceful. While I think that there are entirely legitimate concerns about foreign governments undermining his administration, this goes to far, much in the same way that the PATRIOT ACT did.

I'm wondering how far he can go before there is a backlash.

(Incidentally, why do you insist on using terms like "Saint Hugo" and "Dear Leader?" It completely lowers the level of the debate and makes it appear as if you are more interested in ranting against someone you don't like than having a critical discussion.)

drgoodtrips · #3 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

I'm curious to see what those who hate Dubya for his wiretaps but like this guy because he doesn't like Dubya have to say. Dubya only dreams he could pull off shit like this.

drgoodtrips · #4 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donkey_Left

Yeah I saw this on the BBC earlier today. Pretty disgraceful. While I think that there are entirely legitimate concerns about foreign governments undermining his administration, this goes to far, much in the same way that the PATRIOT ACT did.

But, the PATRIOT Act gets more points for Orwellian naming. Unless this is called "La Regla de Libertad", I don't think the irony is quite as good.

Donkey_Left · #5 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by drgoodtrips

I'm curious to see what those who hate Dubya for his wiretaps but like this guy because he doesn't like Dubya have to say. Dubya only dreams he could pull off shit like this.

I don't know how much experience you have with the armchair revolutionaries in the United States. I have had more than my share, of late. The way that they often excuse this sort of thing (or similar, more drastic things in Cuba) is the defense of the revolution. They don't actually seem to have any real ideological objections to strong-arm governments, only to strong-arm governments that they dislike.

Traveler · #6 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donkey_Left

Yeah I saw this on the BBC earlier today. Pretty disgraceful. While I think that there are entirely legitimate concerns about foreign governments undermining his administration, this goes to far, much in the same way that the PATRIOT ACT did.

Again, nonsense...we don't have a Government loyalty act like various other states do and nor do we have a Good Samaritan act either, nobody is obliged to do anything.

MattLarson · #7 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donkey_Left

Yeah I saw this on the BBC earlier today. Pretty disgraceful. While I think that there are entirely legitimate concerns about foreign governments undermining his administration, this goes to far, much in the same way that the PATRIOT ACT did.

I'm wondering how far he can go before there is a backlash.

Oh, come on now. This is a quantum leap beyond anything that is contained in the Patriot Act.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donkey_Left

(Incidentally, why do you insist on using terms like "Saint Hugo" and "Dear Leader?" It completely lowers the level of the debate and makes it appear as if you are more interested in ranting against someone you don't like than having a critical discussion.)

Fair point.

Matt

Donkey_Left · #8 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traveler

Again, nonsense...we don't have a Government loyalty act like various other states do and nor do we have a Good Samaritan act either, nobody is obliged to do anything.

I didn't say that the specifics were the same. I said that it crossed a line.

Traveler · #9 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by drgoodtrips

I'm curious to see what those who hate Dubya for his wiretaps but like this guy because he doesn't like Dubya have to say. Dubya only dreams he could pull off shit like this.

How is this even remotely similar?

MattLarson · #10 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

This is also, IMHO, a very good example of why the ability to legislate by fiat that Chavez was given was a grave mistake.

No checks or balances at all.

Matt

drgoodtrips · #11 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traveler

How is this even remotely similar?

heh.

You're right, it can't possibly be. After all, you like one guy, but you don't like the other guy.

Traveler · #12 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donkey_Left

I didn't say that the specifics were the same. I said that it crossed a line.

Well seeing as you're into comparing apples and oranges what line is that? Which one was crossed and who crossed it?

Donkey_Left · #13 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

This is also, IMHO, a very good example of why the ability to legislate by fiat that Chavez was given was a grave mistake.

No checks or balances at all.

Matt

Indeed. No leader, whether it be Gandhi, the Pope, or Jesus fricken' Christ himself should ever get that opportunity. It's stuuuuupid.

To use the internet phrasology... Liberation: You're Doing it Wrong.

Look at the Zapatistas, now they know how to set policy.

Traveler · #14 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by drgoodtrips

heh.

You're right, it can't possibly be. After all, you like one guy, but you don't like the other guy.

I would like to actually see a loyalty law passed in the US where, all US citizens and anyone in the jurisdiction of US territory or soil, or under the rule or control of the United States be forced to comply with helping the USSS or FBI/NSA etc if they could or were called to if it related to national security.

Donkey_Left · #15 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traveler

Well seeing as you're into comparing apples and oranges what line is that? Which one was crossed and who crossed it?

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