BBC NEWS | Americas | Latin America outraged at EU plan

Jail for 18 months? Seriously? Europeans on the board, is this a popular measure, or is it something that got worked out upstairs without people using their heads?

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"Jesus said: I have cast fire upon the world, and behold I guard it until it is ablaze."
Gospel of Thomas

So what do you think is a reasonable penalty for entering a country in violation of that country's laws?

Matt

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De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

These laws only apply when a national institution has already decided that someone should be deported, these measures limit the things national governements can do, they do not force national governements to be tougher. There is no penalty in this law for what Matt calls "entering a country in violation of that country's laws", this is only about the penalty if you refuse to leave. Every nation can still decide for itself to legalise or deport someone who is illegal. It also restricts the incarceration of children and the deportation of people who could be threatened in their home country.

Overall it's a very humane measure.

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Terrornoia: how the propa-ugandists used the omni-territorialization of terror for the fundamen-talismanization of criminal law in a multi-cultus-ritualistic society

Well, aside from the fact that I think immigration laws in Europe suck in general, deportation seems appropriate.

Holding someone for a year and a half before doing so does not.

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"Jesus said: I have cast fire upon the world, and behold I guard it until it is ablaze."
Gospel of Thomas

No, it's not popular, at least not in my experience. Whatever you think about immigration laws and deportation, jailing someone for 18 months without charge is wrong.

well the 3 stooges, correa morales and Chavez are pissed huh? Why? Their workers paradises mean none of their citizens being detained right?

The silly argument that work others do jobs others won't is well ridiculous, what does that have to do with it?



And I didn't see any objections form Mexico, that’s good, because they have very difficult immigration laws and likes to paint us as baddies because we send people back etc….

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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

Note that there are 5 countries (including the Netherlands and Britain) who can currently detain illegals indefinatly and mostly have no special rules for children. So for them the law actually is softer on illegals.

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Terrornoia: how the propa-ugandists used the omni-territorialization of terror for the fundamen-talismanization of criminal law in a multi-cultus-ritualistic society

What do you actually know about Correa and Morales? Or are you just lumping them in with Chavez out of ignorance?

It's not just Ecuador, Bolivia and Venezuela, incidentally, that are upset.

The general attitude down here seems to be that Latin America took in thousands of European immigrants when Europe was in dire straits, and now Europe is being hypocritical and inhumane.

Tell me, Imperator, what do you think about holding someone for 18 months?

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"Jesus said: I have cast fire upon the world, and behold I guard it until it is ablaze."
Gospel of Thomas

So because some countries had worse laws, it's ok to make an obscene overall law?

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"Jesus said: I have cast fire upon the world, and behold I guard it until it is ablaze."
Gospel of Thomas

This is probably a misunderstanding. As far as I understand this EU directive, it does not affect those countries who have softer immigration laws. Only the states with stricter regulations are affected.
However one can criticize the directive for still allowing too severe measures. But then I am a little surprised that some Latin American countries get upset right now, and not in the years before the passage of this directive, since it was then that the legal situation for immigrants was worse.

I agree - but: What do you suggest? To build a wall between Mexico and the European Union like in times of cold war? (By the way: I know that this sentence is wrong)

But indeed you're right: I have often the feeling if Jospeh had to flee today to Egypt he had to do it without mother Mary and her baby. This 'better world' some people sometimes are speaking of seems to exist only in phantasy and is producing nightmares. Seems for me no one is really thinking about the single (wo)men in a machine of laws without grace. This laws seem to be constructed under the dictatorship of fearness. The rich live in fear of the poorness and they are arresting the poor which are looking for their chance to get a better life. It's not really fair to arrest this people like criminals.

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

First of all its "up to 18 months" and only in special cases (ie not as standard procedure and only with specific arguments backing up such a time)

Secondly it also says that they are not going to be "imprisoned" insofar as they are not to be transferred to prisons or getting into contact with criminals. There shall be specific detention centers, (I know ugly word) which will have non of the "punishing aspects" prisons have. The sole purpose is to prevent the people from fleeing before they are driven out of the country.

Furthermore its no must, its a framework. No member state must exceed that time, every member state is perfectly fine to have far shorter times or no such thing at all.


Having that said, I dislike that directive as well, but what shall I do, Conservatives are the majority currently and making life harder for illegal immigrants for sure is a popular thing among common people.

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When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

Its no penalty. Its a measurement that is taken to prevent people who are going to be moved out of the country as they have no permission to be here, nor the necessary refugee or asylum status to flee before they can be moved out of it.

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When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

The law is in so far positive as it forces those 5 countries to stop that nasty practices while it does not mean anything for those member states who have stricter rules in place.

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

I think it sux. But sending them back should not be an issue.

And as far as what I know about correa chavez and morales- what I read.

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor