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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008
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Fennica Fennica is offline
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Re: Russia recognizes independence of S Ossetia and Abkhazia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorvald View Post
Good point, although I'll hope it remain under Russian control. However, if Abchazia has the right on secession, then there is no need to hold that right to Republika Srpska in Bosnia, or,the unite Serbia with theSerb populated areas of Kosovo.

Its like the box of Pandora. Which area can be independent, and which not. Can Flanders step out of Belgium, Scotland from the UK? Tatarstan, Chechnya and Yakutia from Russia? Padania from Italy? Catalonia from Spain?
That begs the question `who deserves independence?´ Also, weather the kinship could live and stand alone as a nation should be a great factor in this.
Look at the maps before WW1 and right after it. So many nations born out of destructions of Empires. All these areas were populated by certain kinship, they had desire to rule themselves and function as a nation.
I'd say that most of those do quite well these days.

..I would not bring up Kosovo in that kontekst, though. Albanians were allowed to purge the area under Peacekeepers eyes, so vast majority of able Serbs have already migrated into Serbia.
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  #107 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008
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Fennica Fennica is offline
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Re: Russia recognizes independence of S Ossetia and Abkhazia

Quote:
Originally Posted by oleg View Post
Well, the Republics of Soviet Union were given OPTION of independence long before the WW2, right at the same moment as Bolshevicks created SU from the ruins of Russian Empire. The national elites of those Republics loyal to the Kremlin didn't use it, the nationalist radicals were hunted - exactly like English tolerated loyal Irish elites and hunted radicals of IRA.
You actually believe that yourself?
Areas of the former Russian empire were in turmoil after the `Great War´ and Bolsheviks were among the most ruthless and bloody of the numerous factions then fighting.
Hardly options, more like sudden opportunities.

Quote:
The point is not that somebody's nerves are screwed too hot about history. The point is that real borders devide the formerly unite regions and cut off the economical ties - on the political decisions of governments which now are imposed by Washington to contain the development of rival Russia.
Formely unite??
Please be more clear in this- Did you mean during the regin of Soviet Union?

And former Satelite-nations slaved by Soviet Russia have every right to declare alliances to whomever they please, Russians have no say to that.
At least Washington doesn't try to dictate their rule(over their own lands).

Quote:
Well, Russian Federation has either demonstrated and REALLY allowed the other 14 Soviet Republics become independent states, peacefully and legally without war.
The only difference is that for the time being there is no support for the Irish nationalist-revisionists radicals from outside and there is a lot for the Ukrainian and Baltic ones.
Russian Federation allowed 14 satelites to become independent from you?? When?

And you could explain little bit more about the Ukranian and Baltic nationalist-revisionists.

From what I have heard, Russian Federation is back in the old days, history books are re-written according to the Soviet era, and new generations learn somethings in very wrong way.
-Is that true?
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008
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Thorvald Thorvald is offline
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Re: Russia recognizes independence of S Ossetia and Abkhazia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fennica View Post
That begs the question `who deserves independence?´ Also, weather the kinship could live and stand alone as a nation should be a great factor in this.
Look at the maps before WW1 and right after it. So many nations born out of destructions of Empires. All these areas were populated by certain kinship, they had desire to rule themselves and function as a nation.
I'd say that most of those do quite well these days.

..I would not bring up Kosovo in that kontekst, though. Albanians were allowed to purge the area under Peacekeepers eyes, so vast majority of able Serbs have already migrated into Serbia.
You are right, ofcourse. However, who determinded that right who deserve the independence? Certain areas without significant economical resourses are just problematic to grant independence. For example, should Trans-Dnistria be an independent republic? I say no. Kosovo is historic Serb land, so, they will never recognize it, understandable. But Kosovi will create a lot of problems as we speak, now and in the nearby future. South-Ossetia independent? Well, if Moscow wish to recognize their independence, atleast the Russians should be fair enough to return Northern Ossetia to unite with Southern Ossetia, and not act as a hypocrite to keep the North under their controll. Same right of independence should then also been granted to Russia's numerous ethnic minorities: Chechyans, Chuvash, Tatars, Bashkirs, Udmurts, Buryats, Yakuts, if they wish so.

As you brought up WWI, well, clearly the borders between Hungary and its neighbours doesn't pleased the Hungarian Nationalists groups and the Hungarian minorioties themselves. Southern Slovakia, populated by ethnic Hungarians, should they have the right to re-unite with Hungaria? I say yes. Same for the Hungarian populated areas of Vojvodina in Serbia. Transylvania in Romania might be complicated, concerning the Szekler area is devided from Hungary by ethnic Romanians. This bring up a second question. Whas the ethnic cleansing of German populated areas in present-day Czech-REpublic and Poland justified? I say NO!! Should the expellees have the right on the return to their land? Yes.

Karelia should unite with Finland? Definately.

As said, its a box of Pandora and highly complicated.
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008
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Fennica Fennica is offline
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Re: Russia recognizes independence of S Ossetia and Abkhazia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorvald View Post
You are right, ofcourse. However, who determinded that right who deserve the independence? Certain areas without significant economical resourses are just problematic to grant independence. For example, should Trans-Dnistria be an independent republic? I say no.
Agreed. To have a nation born, it should be able to stand on its own feet, have possibility to defend her borders and have a working economy.

Quote:
Kosovo is historic Serb land, so, they will never recognize it, understandable. But Kosovi will create a lot of problems as we speak, now and in the nearby future. South-Ossetia independent? Well, if Moscow wish to recognize their independence, atleast the Russians should be fair enough to return Northern Ossetia to unite with Southern Ossetia, and not act as a hypocrite to keep the North under their controll. Same right of independence should then also been granted to Russia's numerous ethnic minorities: Chechyans, Chuvash, Tatars, Bashkirs, Udmurts, Buryats, Yakuts, if they wish so.
Russian Federation has been ruthless towards the rightss of minorities in the past ten years. Finnic Tribes have been denied of their own language teachings, for example. "Russofication" MKII it seems.
Russians do not make all that mush sence in their liberation spree. THey themselves downright stomp their own minorities while `help´ those outside their borders.
THen again, Abhasia and S-Ossetia had nothing to do with minorities. Russians claim to have mearly protected Russians living outside her Borders.
(which on itself implies tons of trouble towards Baltics and Ukraine, least they deal with their Russian minorites with haste.)

Quote:
As you brought up WWI, well, clearly the borders between Hungary and its neighbours doesn't pleased the Hungarian Nationalists groups and the Hungarian minorioties themselves. Southern Slovakia, populated by ethnic Hungarians, should they have the right to re-unite with Hungaria? I say yes. Same for the Hungarian populated areas of Vojvodina in Serbia. Transylvania in Romania might be complicated, concerning the Szekler area is devided from Hungary by ethnic Romanians.
I talked with this matter with an Hungarian young woman last year.
She does vouloonteer-work in Ukraine every summer, because millions of Hungarians actually live in there. Borders did not always go according to kinships back then, and that is what does create problems.

Quote:
This bring up a second question. Whas the ethnic cleansing of German populated areas in present-day Czech-REpublic and Poland justified? I say NO!! Should the expellees have the right on the return to their land? Yes.
I can imagine the Russian outcry, should this ever happen. Preussland should belong to Germans, though.

Quote:
Karelia should unite with Finland? Definately.
I visited Karelia this summer(I am of Karelian bloodline). Place is a total and complete mess.
And now St. Petersburgians have found that Isthmus is an ideal place for their datshas.
Russian Federatin will never give any land they have once claimed. Not that it matters, place looks like post-apocalyptic wasteland anyway.

Quote:
As said, its a box of Pandora and highly complicated.
It is. Imagine Lakota-tribe declaring independence. Would the U.S. allow this to occur?
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008
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ThorHammer ThorHammer is offline
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Re: Russia recognizes independence of S Ossetia and Abkhazia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fennica View Post
It is. Imagine Lakota-tribe declaring independence. Would the U.S. allow this to occur?
They are, technically, independent already.
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  #111 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008
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Fennica Fennica is offline
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Re: Russia recognizes independence of S Ossetia and Abkhazia

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Originally Posted by ThorHammer View Post
They are, technically, independent already.
I meant the whole Flag-currency-language-thing.
Not even part of the U.S., with own troops and own parliament.
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008
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ThorHammer ThorHammer is offline
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Re: Russia recognizes independence of S Ossetia and Abkhazia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fennica View Post
I meant the whole Flag-currency-language-thing.
Not even part of the U.S., with own troops and own parliament.
ahhh, I see. My mistake.

Honestly, I don't think the US would have any problem if they did. They certainly wouldn't pose any sort of threat and would still be utterly dependant on the US.
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There can be no bystanders in the battle for survival. Anyone who will not fight by your side is an enemy you must crush.

We are at war with forces too terrible to comprehend. We cannot afford mercy for any of its victims too weak to take the correct course. Mercy destroys us; it weakens us and saps our resolve. Put aside all such thoughts. They are not worthy of those in the service of country.
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  #113 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008
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moon moon is offline
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Re: Russia recognizes independence of S Ossetia and Abkhazia

Maybe they'd scalp all the paleface effigies on Mt. Rushmore. For starters.
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008
jaro jaro is offline
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Re: Russia recognizes independence of S Ossetia and Abkhazia

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorHammer
ahhh, I see. My mistake.

Honestly, I don't think the US would have any problem if they did. They certainly wouldn't pose any sort of threat and would still be utterly dependant on the US.
They could vote for having Russian military bases and army there for protection .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fennica
I can imagine the Russian outcry, should this ever happen. Preussland should belong to Germans, though.
German expelees do not want to return to Poland or Czech republic. Most of them are dead, and their children don't want to be called expelees anymore. They have new home, there is no reason why to return back.
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  #115 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2008
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Thorvald Thorvald is offline
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Re: Russia recognizes independence of S Ossetia and Abkhazia

t makes no difference and I sincerely doubt your statement (no source to begin with), fact is, that the land east of the Oder-River was German land and if the Gods will, it shall be German land again.
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old 10-15-2008
Mark6 Mark6 is offline
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Re: Russia recognizes independence of S Ossetia and Abkhazia

People, which named their selves as democrats, recognize, on words, a priority of the human rights. But, on practice, these declarations are failed as to geopolitical interests. New "democracies", formed after decay of the Soviet Union, had begun their existence from depressing of minorities, even when these minorities were about a half of the population. This is specially about Ukraine, Baltic countries and Georgia. So, what we have with Abkhazia and Ossetia is only followed from the fact. Thus, now declaration about Democracy is just a means in the information war.
I can remind that now in Russia patriotic mood much stronger than in the Soviet Union. In Soviet Union official propaganda behind the iron curtain had been accepted by the population ironically. As a whole, relation to the USA had been positive. Now, when the population of Russia has acceptance to all sources of information situation changed radically.
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