[QUOTE=ThorHammer;1317601][QUOTE=Voland;1317593]
Wrong. The Waffen-SS, unlike the Totenkopfverbaende and the Einsatzgruppen, were under the control of OKW and OKH. They served and fought under the overall command of the Heer.






It is you who is wrong here. The Waffen SS was formed in 1940 out of several organisations of the SS, including the "Totenkopf -Verbände" And like all organisations of the SS they were directly under the control of the "Reichsführer SS", Himmler and never the army. For the simple reason that the Nazis ( correctly) questioned the loyalty of many army generals.





Quote : / Again, this is a false statement. The members of the KZ units were not members of the Waffen-SS. The only time this happened was during the formation of the Totenkopf division just after the fall of Poland and before the invasion of France, long before the partisan battles and the final solution.






No, it is again you, who is mistaken here. The members of the KZ units were part of the Totenkopf SS that in 1940 was merged with the Verfügungstruppen and the Leibstandarte to form the Waffen SS. The Totenkopf divisions were by the way formed in 1937, while the fall of Poland was as we know two years later. And the final solution was, excuse me , already on the way in 1940, at least clear to an SS member.






Quote : / And, like I pointed out before, those two organizations were seperate from the Waffen-SS.




No, they were part of it.




Quote : / Yes, they were. It is well documented that the actions of the Einsatzgruppen were classified, and certainly the existance of the death camps.






To quote my grandfather again : "Anybody who wanted to see, could see."
Certainly not the full extent of the Endlösung, but that Jews and other prisoners weren´t deported to a holiday resort and never heard of again was obvious. And reports that soldiers on holidays gave to their families at home about mass executions, mssacres etc. are documented by the tens of thousands.





Quote : / Source for the Waffen-SS doing this? I believe the cases you are referring were actually carried about by members of the Allgemeine-SS, SD, and the Gestapo. Obviously these organizations are not the Waffen-SS.





They were committed by all of these organisations, including the Waffen SS. For the simple reason that the members that they hadn´t to expect mercy when taken prisoner, often not even from their own countrymen, but definitely not from the Russians.





Quote : / Ah, so he wasn't a member of the Waffen-SS then. If he actually committed these crimes, then I can see why he was punished.




He was, as i pointed out. Members of the Waffen SS joined the Einsatzgruppen.




Quote : / It was an example of a Heer veteran saying the opposite of what you claimed. He spoke of very good and close relations between the Heer and the Waffen-SS.





I´m not going to dispute his personal account. I have never met any german veteran ( and since i grew up in Germany and was also doing historical research i met many) who said the same however.




Quote : / Manstein, for example, spoke quite well of the Waffen-SS units under his command. There were also Canadian officers who fought against Kurt Meyer's unit in Normandie were spoke for the defense at his trial, and then fought to have his sentence overturned after that trail.




That Manstein, a convicted war criminal himself, said something like that does somehow not surprise me. And obviously they were soldiers brave to the extent of fanatism.





Quote : /However I will not condem an entire organization, and the soldiers that simply did their duty and fought hard, because of the actions of a minority. That is collective guilt, and if we apply that concept the entire German military of WW2 is criminal, as well as the allied militaries.



I am completely against the idea of collective guilt and i have never pointed at that with regards to the entire german military. Many served with honour and deserve respect. The SS ( including the Waffen SS) however was supposed to form the elite of the new Reich and almost until the very end of the war nobody was forced to become a member. That and their barbaric principles that left a bloody spot over large parts of Europe make them different.

The precursor to the Waffen-SS as we know was the SS-VT (Verfügungstruppe), which was formed in 1934. Out of this unit, which was trained and run according the Heer regulations, the rest of the Waffen-SS grew. It was not until around 1942 that the term Waffen-SS was even used.

When those KZ units were pulled to create the Totenkopf Division, they ceased being members of the Totenkopfverbände (which fell under the Allgemeine-SS) and were then members of the Waffen-SS. This division, the Totenkopf division (the 3.SS Totenkopf Division), was formed in October 1939.

The final solution was not begun until 1942, after it was put in place during the Wannsee conference.

No, they weren't. The Totenkopfverbände and Einsatzgruppen fell under the Allgemeine-SS. The Waffen-SS was a totally seperate branch of the SS.

Again, so says your grandfather after the fact. Who are we to believe? Your grandfater? The vets I have spoken with? Or the literature on the subject that shows the full extent of what was happening was unknown until after the war?

War crimes were committed by both sides during the war, and certainly individuals in the Waffen-SS were guilty of them. The simple reason that they wouldn't surrender easily is, by no means, a damning inditement.

And so did members of the Army. Your point? The simple fact of the matter is that once someone joined the Einsatzgruppen he did not fall under the control of the Waffen-SS, but a entirely seperate branch of the SS. The Waffen-SS and Einsatzgruppen had to different missions.

I am sure you haven't. I have yet meet one who said the same as those though.

The charges against Manstein were bullshit, and mockery of justice. That is why after the war so many of the convicted had their sentences commuted.

Yet that is exactly what you are doing Voland. You are condeming and entire organization because of the actions of individuals. And for the record, conscription for the Waffen-SS began as early as 1943. Hell, you didn't even need to be a member of the Nazi party to be a member of the Waffen-SS, and a soldier did not have to join the party even after entering the Waffen-SS.

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

Members of Waffen-SS were brainwashed freaks fighting for nazis. How disgusting. Instead of praising Manstein and Waffen-SS, you should praise the real heroes - Konstantin Rokossovsky, Georgy Zhukov, Ivan Konev, Mikhail Tukhachevsky (Guderian of Soviet army, although killed by Stalin in purges) and the common Russian man that paid with milions of lives to evict the nazi invaders back into where they came from.

Brainwashed freaks? Care to post some sources detailing the brainwashing techniques they were subjected to?

__________________
I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

Mandatory political indoctrination during training that produced freaks willing to give their life for their Führer. The only excuse for former Waffen-SS members is that they were blind, stupid, too young to see consequences of their actions.

Common myth actually. The Waffen-SS was notorious among the SS for having little to no political training or indoctrination. Certainly no more than their Heer counterparts recieved. Himmler himself wrote letters to Hitler explaining his disatisfaction with this. Fortunately, nothing happened because of it. Paul Hausser, whom some call the creator of what became the Waffen-SS, actually cut almost anything political out of the training cycle for the SS-VT. As the war progressed, political training became more and more rare.

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I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

The man is dead but the ideology is still there.

I hold below nothing of what Haider stood for, but I am against the death penalty and Haider did not even kill anybody.

I think these two issues, the person, the ideology should be separated.

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La terre est bleue comme une orange.

Perhaps I should have been clearer. No one, myself included, is saying that he should have been killed, vis a vis some death penalty angle.

However, in regards to the fact that he actually now is dead: Ein Glück, dass wir ihn los sind! He did us a favor by taking his hateful self off the planet.

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All things serve The Beam

Unfortunately not. The harder fights will follow. But in the moment now? Haider won! Someone said for example about him: "Die Sonne fiel vom Himmel" (="The sun fellt from the sky"). It's really unbelievable to hear such extremly stupid heathen sentences spoken in german about a human being like Haider: He's not a member of the gods of the Olymp but a drunken asshole not able to drive car.

YouTube - Hitler Leasing !

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Soldiers in Afghanistan: Don't defend vote riggers and drug dealers. Come home friends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFlKx3YPL5I

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz-QCvB4m1U

It's a little bit primitive to state things like that.

Well, let say that he could have left the political scene in another way,not that deadly.

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La terre est bleue comme une orange.

It's more than only a problem - they are calling Haider "The messiah of Carinthia" - he is called "Haider was our hope" , "He was our first citizen" and so on. An eleven years old child answered "It cannot be that Haider is dead, because a man like him is not able to die" and so on and so on. Never heard so many stupidities about a dead sinner like Haider. No one asks for example how it can be that a 58 years old man learned in his whole life so less, that he is driving car while he's deeply drunken. Everyone who has "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" can immediately imagine that there is something completly wrong. But even bishops of the catholic church are playing to be part of this completly wrong game. Very dissapointing.

To remember: YouTube - the bunker - anthony hopkins (as hitler)

__________________
Soldiers in Afghanistan: Don't defend vote riggers and drug dealers. Come home friends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFlKx3YPL5I

---
Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz-QCvB4m1U