What I find extremely astonishing is the degree of emotionality by the Austrians in Kaernten. People seemed to have like him a lot.
Haider war definitely a< self-exposer with sometimes really doubtful political views, but he was also quite intelligent and not like most far right political representatives who seem barely able to even spell their names.
Most interestingly, Haider once named the German social democrat (and former chancellor) Helmut Schmidt as his great political idol. Weird for an supposed right wing extremist, isn't it?

He was liked so much also because of his dedication to his job as governor. A mother who had to raise a child all by herself and got into severe problems with red tape and the courts, did seek help already in all instances and no one really helped her. As kind of last resort she went to Haider (who studied law) and he could help her until the end of the same day.

Stories like these made him so popular. Furthermore was he one of those always present politicians who have no fear to get into contact with the people, he did not fear to get into contact with the Slovenic people either.

He was an opportunist though, when he spoke to Abwehrkämpfer he accused the Slovenes for everything, but when he spoke to members of the minorities he could be sugar sweet and even appear authentic while doing that. He had many faces indeed.

I agree with you. Haider had many faces and he definitely was not one of those blunt and dumb Glatzen or right extremists. Already compared to Strache he seemed so much more intelligent and less extremist.

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When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

His parents were Nazis and he was educated as a Nazi.

In the near of Kassel a few years ago I met a father with his very beautiful daughter looking under piss artists for some idiots they are able to misuse for their criminal political business. This is the material for dumb skinheads. But he and his daughter were anything else than dumb Glatzen. Nazis are not harmless and they are unfortunately not completly passed. Haider was very dangerous because of his charisma.

If a popular and charismatic man like Haider is believing his own lies - this makes him unbelievable dangerous. Alcoholics are often in this way but normally one can find it out immediatelly. Seems Haider was very intelligent. What a luck that he killed only himself and not in the usual kind of extended suicide as so many crazy people are doing - specially for example the very intelligent Goebbels who killed his own family. Indeed the deep philosophy and psychology of the Nazis seems to be to kill everything like a monster that is eating everything until it is finding its own leg and starts eating itself until it is disappeared.

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Anobsitar, you are still missing the point. The translation done in the video was fake, and was ment as a joke (a bad one, I might add). Böch wasn't really saying those words.

__________________
There can be no bystanders in the battle for survival. Anyone who will not fight by your side is an enemy you must crush.

We are at war with forces too terrible to comprehend. We cannot afford mercy for any of its victims too weak to take the correct course. Mercy destroys us; it weakens us and saps our resolve. Put aside all such thoughts. They are not worthy of those in the service of country.

So if he was such a Nazi through and through, how does it come that he appeared at a festival in a village with the highest number of Slovene speakers in Carinthia and was warmly welcomed for example by the local Slovene music chapel?


Haider became during his life time increasingly moderate, also behind the facade, because he increasingly liked the office of the governor and he was popular as he was. Having a hidden Nazi agenda would just have undermined his broad popularity. As that feature was however what he enjoyed the most its extremely doubtable he would have risked it.

If Haider was such a huge Nazi, its a bit weird that one of his very good friends was a Lybian, the husband of his daughter is Italian and if I am not wrong the other daughter lived or even still lives in the USA.

Are you saying Haider was an alcoholic? Maybe he was but there is not the slightest evidence for that at all. Its just a blunt completely unfounded accusation from your side.

That comment is disgusting. Setting Haider a same with Goebbels is completely hillarious. To insult him in the most serious way, ie that the family guy Haider would have ever only remotely considered killing his family shows an unseen lack of respect.

You also seem to have a very simplistic idea of Nazis. Most Austrian Nazis of the war for example do not fit into that view. They mostly arranged with the new times after the war, as they did arrange themselves with the new times after the Anschluss, or fled to Argentine if they could not hide up their past good enough. While this may not show extreme good integrity it is very different from your simplistic view of monsters.

The fact that you set Haider a same with the worst Nazi war criminals is an unspeakable affront against his family. Do you lack any respect for a human being?

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

I took a look now and saw that the familyname "Böch" in Germany is not existing at all. But there are about 34 "Einstein" and 45413 "Bush", no McGain, no Obama, 797 Thor with 21178 Hammer. This are more than 25 hammer per one Thor.

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Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Oh fucking please. No one, anywhere, in the entirety of the German nation is named Boech?

I simply don't believe you. As we Californier sagen, "I call bullshit."

And, frankly, that's weak.

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All things serve The Beam

What a nice idea - If I find A Nazi I will put him in a cage and then he has to listen to a slovene music chapel until he's crying "No - I'm not a Nazi anymore. Please stop." But is it allowed to use such very heavy kinds of torture?

YouTube - Terrafolk and Anja Bukovec live in London May 2007

If I heard this now: It is allowed - because wonderful music never can be a torture - and the world is - thanks dear god and all musicians in the world - full of wonderful music like this was or for example or also this german song is from Johann Sebastian Bach: YouTube - Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring 主よ、人の望みの喜びよ-Kalimba カリンバ

Original German lyrics:

Jesus bleibet meine Freude,
meines Herzens Trost und Saft,
Jesus wehret allem Leide,
er ist meines Lebens Kraft,
meiner Augen Lust und Sonne,
meiner Seele Schatz und Wonne;
darum lass' ich Jesum nicht
aus dem Herzen und Gesicht.

Wohl mir, dass ich Jesum habe,
o wie feste halt' ich ihn,
dass er mir mein Herze labe,
wenn ich krank und traurig bin.
Jesum hab' ich, der mich liebet
und sich mir zu eigen giebet,
ach drum lass' ich Jesum nicht,
wenn mir gleich mein Herze bricht.


English Translation

Jesu, joy of man's desiring,
Holy Wisdom, Love most bright;
Drawn by Thee, our souls, aspiring,
Soar to uncreated light.
Word of God, our flesh that fashion'd,
With the fire of life impassion'd,
Striving still to truth unknown,
Soaring, dying, round Thy throne.

Through the way where hope is guiding,
Hark, what peaceful music rings!
Where the flock, in Thee confiding,
Drink of joy from deathless springs.
Theirs is beauty's fairest pleasure;
Theirs is wisdom's holiest treasure.
Thou dost ever lead Thine own

YouTube - Celtic Woman - Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring (live)

__________________


Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

It shows exactly what the danger of Nazis is: extended suicide. In the end more than 20 million people in World War II were murdered iun Europe - and if no German would have survived and no Austrian would exist any more - Hitler would be satisfied about. And Hitler was an Austrian. Every Nazi who survives shows that he is not doing the will of Hitler. If Haider killed himself he was only consequent.

I think in reality Haider caused in all his political carreer nothing else than problems for Austria - but Austrians are loving him in a hysterical way.

I think it is damned crazy what you are doing to minimize the dangers a man like Haider is producing over the times of his death. We don't need another wrong hero.

YouTube - TINA TURNER We Don't Need Another Hero EXTENDED VERSION

__________________


Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Some of my ancestors are Austrian Jews and you are really asking me to have respect for human beings?

YouTube - Charlie Chaplin: Scene in the jewish ghetto

__________________


Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

It may be of random interest but Haider was apparently pissed like a donkey when he had his car accident.......

Too Drunk to Drive: Autopsy Shows Haider Was Intoxicated - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

It may be true that some were blind enough on the political eye to only want to join the Waffen- SS because of the beautiful uniforms and the nice parades. But fact is that nobody who was a member of that organisation could be unclear about its true intentions and purposes, like for examples "cleaning" the occupied territories of "unworty lifeforms" ( Jews etc.) and secure the Nazi grip to the East.
I personally know one former member, who was at least honest enough to admit his involvement in numerous such atrocities (that had earned him ten years of force labour in the Soviet Union.) He was member of an organisation trying to keep young disadvantaged guys in eastern Germany from joining Nazi organisations by telling how it really was beeing a member of the SS.
I also know from many sources ( including my german grandfather and many other german veterans) that the relations between the SS and ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers were often tensed to the point of sometimes clashing with each other. Reasons were for example their fanatism but also refusals by normal german soldiers to take part in executions or to carry out orders that would have amounted to suicide. ( for example attack american tank armies at the end of the war with a couple of rusty rifles, while the SS stood behind them and shot everybody that was trying to retreat like any sane person would have)
My grandfather ( and he speaks for pretty much all veterans that i am aware of ) was convinced that many or most members of the Wehrmacht that weren´t asked to become soldiers at least tried to keep their dignity, but that no member of the SS could have come out of WW II with a clean conscience.
And since his testimony corresponds with most of the literature and other documented facts about that topic i consider Jörg Haiders general praise of the Waffen- SS ( and not of individual members) as an unforgiveable and inexcusable insult to the countless victims these men left behind.

You are getting your organizations mixed up here. The Waffen-SS was made up of combar formations that fought at the front. Without actually performing the crimes you mentioned, how could a soldier at the front know about them?

What crimes did he commit? I mean, the Russians were known to send Germasn soldiers to forced labour camps for no other reason than being German soldiers.

Funny, that kinda goes against what I have read and what I have heard from vets. I mean, I once met a veteran from the Grossdeutschland division who used to say nothing but good things about the Waffen-SS soldiers he fought along side. In fact, he and his comerades used to be greatful to have a Waffen-SS division next to them in Russia, because they knew they wouldn't leave them in a lurch, and the Russians wouldn't attack in that area at night.

With all due respect to your grandfather, he speaks for himself. Soldiers of the Waffen-SS were soldiers like any other. The actions of their Heer and Luftwaffe comerades after the war, as well as their former enemies, lend credence to this.

Funny, much of the literature I have read paints a quite different picture of the Waffen-SS. Certainly in the years directly following the war, and for a few decades after, there was much written damning the Waffen-SS. However, recently scholarly research is putting many of the claims made in those works to bed.

__________________
There can be no bystanders in the battle for survival. Anyone who will not fight by your side is an enemy you must crush.

We are at war with forces too terrible to comprehend. We cannot afford mercy for any of its victims too weak to take the correct course. Mercy destroys us; it weakens us and saps our resolve. Put aside all such thoughts. They are not worthy of those in the service of country.

[quote=ThorHammer;1317576]You are getting your organizations mixed up here. The Waffen-SS was made up of combar formations that fought at the front. Without actually performing the crimes you mentioned, how could a soldier at the front know about them?




I am not getting any informations mixed up here. The Waffen SS was under the direct command of Himmler and therefore outside the normal Wehrmacht structures and it primarily served Nazi policies. The members of the concentration camp guard units were for example also mostly its members. Others were the members of Hitlers personal guard ( "Leibstandarte") and the "Verfügungstruppen" former paramilitary units who had for example terrorized political enemies of the Nazis before.
Lastly the Totenkopf SS Units have to be mentioned and their actions against ukrainian and russian civilians as well as those as members of the "Einsatzgruppen" are well documented.
It is also only reasonable to assume that somebody who had voluntarily joined the SS wasn´t unaware about this organisations intentions. ( These were not kept secret)
Towards the end of the war the members of the Waffen SS tried to terrorize the civilian population as well as the exhausted Wehrmacht into prolonging the war by shooting or hanging thousands as "cowards". To claim that a member of the SS could have not been aware of what his organisation was standing for and doing is absurd.





Quote : / What crimes did he commit? I mean, the Russians were known to send Germasn soldiers to forced labour camps for no other reason than being German soldiers.



He was a member of the " Einsatzgruppen in southern Ukraine and for years busy shooting "ten Ukrainians for one German". That most of the victims were civilians and had never attacked any German doesn´t need to be explicitly mentioned, i guess.



Quote : /I mean, I once met a veteran from the Grossdeutschland division who used to say nothing but good things about the Waffen-SS soldiers he fought along side. In fact, he and his comerades used to be greatful to have a Waffen-SS division next to them in Russia, because they knew they wouldn't leave them in a lurch, and the Russians wouldn't attack in that area at night.





That is not a counterargument to what i wrote above.




Quote : / With all due respect to your grandfather, he speaks for himself. Soldiers of the Waffen-SS were soldiers like any other. The actions of their Heer and Luftwaffe comerades after the war, as well as their former enemies, lend credence to this.



What actions are you reffering to ?


Quote : / Funny, much of the literature I have read paints a quite different picture of the Waffen-SS. Certainly in the years directly following the war, and for a few decades after, there was much written damning the Waffen-SS. However, recently scholarly research is putting many of the claims made in those works to bed.



Research by whom ?
So the brutal crushing of the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto ( carried out by Waffen SS) or the guarding of Nazi concentration camps are just "claims"?

[quote=Voland;1317593]
I am not getting any informations mixed up here. The Waffen SS was under the direct command of Himmler and therefore outside the normal Wehrmacht structures and it primarily served Nazi policies.

Wrong. The Waffen-SS, unlike the Totenkopfverbaende and the Einsatzgruppen, were under the control of OKW and OKH. They served and fought under the overall command of the Heer.

Again, this is a false statement. The members of the KZ units were not members of the Waffen-SS. The only time this happened was during the formation of the Totenkopf division just after the fall of Poland and before the invasion of France, long before the partisan battles and the final solution.

And, like I pointed out before, those two organizations were seperate from the Waffen-SS.

Yes, they were. It is well documented that the actions of the Einsatzgruppen were classified, and certainly the existance of the death camps.