Thread: Kaliningrad Oblast--its future

Originally Posted by Tim

I would like to see it as part of the EU under the joint sovereignty of several nations: Russia, Lithuania, Poland and Germany. That may be an audacious plan, but in the coming years the Baltic will likely continue to grow in importance as a center for trade and a center for many nations - a return to the old Hanseatic league, with the great port capitals of the Baltic at the center of commerce and cultural interchange.

That plan is audacious. I don't think with its current population being mostly Russian that it would go for multiple sovereign control. If it doesn't stay with Russia, I think independence or special self-governing status will be more likely along with greater links to the regional areas, which is happening anyway with EU nations should the oblast ever get into the EU and other things like Schengen, etc, in one way or another.

You are right that it has the ability to become self-sustaining and significant on its own power. It has great ports, some natural resources, a city with a long and interesting history that has regional historical, emotional and cultural attachments with Russians, Germans, Lithuanians and other Baltic people, Polish, etc, some nice coastal resorts and/or the potential to be such like Svetlogorsk (Rauschen), etc.

Originally Posted by Tim

IKonigsberg was completely destroyed, but it would be worthwhile to reconstruct some of the beautiful old pre-war buildings such as the castle, the cathedral, the city walls and the university.

It mostly was, yes, and the Soviets destroyed more after the war to Russify it (like dynamiting the remnants of Koenigsberg Castle for example). But some things have survived. The cathedral as mentioned was recently rebuilt with the help of German fundraising, and there is much talk of rebuilding the Koenigsberg Castle. Other pre-existing Prussian architectural aspects survived (like some of the gates like the Brandenburg Gate, Sackheim Gate, etc) and/or were rebuilt despite official policies in Soviet times to totally eradicate all Prussian structures and fully Russify the city. On the then-outskirts of the city, a lovely upscale German residential section (Amalienau) escaped the WWII bombings and shellings and today is considered a 'chick' and upscale neighbourhood to live. This site lists a whole number of pre-war surviving aspects:

RentKaliningrad - Kaliningrad Guide

From what I understand, outside the city in the regional towns and rural areas of the oblast, plenty of German architecture remains despite the former Soviet policy to eradicate all elements of it, which I suspect occurred due to a myriad of reason such as saving costs, people already re-occupied them and/or they provided incentives for that due to their specific attractiveness or usefulness, they were pretty and liked locally, they could be refitted, they were 'out of the way' towns from most Western eyes, etc.

Many residents of the oblast also advocate for recharactertising and enjoying the Prussian history of the area too in rebuildings, local identity and cultural outreaches. Many even suggest changing the name of Kaliningrad back to Koenigsberg.

Originally Posted by Tim

This plan would allow the Russians more involvement with Europe, but trade would be at the heart of it - not the military.

I'd agree here that trade will bring about more changes, integration, intertwining, etc, of Russia and/or the oblast with the rest of Europe and others. Revamping the militarised aspects of the oblast would, IMO, set all that back and instead send its future into the opposite directions.

Originally Posted by stillalive

Russia will not give it up.
They need the ports for their baltic fleet
Apart from that it is a "We´re still here" reminder of Russia to Poland and the baltic States.

Granted, the port value of the oblast is exactly why the Soviets took the area in the first place. It gave the Soviet Union (and now Russia) its only yearly ice-free port access in the east, which is why they have stationed its Baltic Fleet at Baltiysk (Pillau) since they took it. I don't suspect they'd want to give that up too easily despite all the geographic and political developments concerning it.

Originally Posted by stillalive

I´ve been to Kaliningrad last year with my 94 year old aunt who was born in Insterburg, now Tchernjakovsk.

How was your experience there and what impressions did you get? Did you get to Chernyakhovsk (Insterburg)? Reading your links, it appears much of the physical German architecture and character remains there such as cobblestone streets, neighbourhood buildings and churches, the old fire house and train stations, the water towers, the George castle, etc, plus the new locals have chosen to adopt and maintain the horse breeding and riding culture that existed there beforehand, etc.

Originally Posted by stillalive

To be honest, I´d love it to be part of the EU. It´s a beautiful region.

Indeed, but how and in what forms do you see that eventually occurring?

Originally Posted by stillalive

But the "shield against Iran" has destroyed all hopes of the oblast being part of the EU forever.

The "shield". seen by most Europeans as what it really is, a threat to Russia and an attempt to restart the cold war is no more than an idiotic attempt to start the arms race again and so keep millions of US jobs alive.
The second motive for Bush to install that "shield" is to disrupt EU unification by positioning Poland, Czechia and the Baltic States against EU interests.

Thank God, Bush will be history in a few weeks.
I only hope, the US rethink and Obama puts the "shield" where it should be to have any effect against Iran, namely to Turkey.

See my post to Jason Marcel above where he raises similar concerns. The shield might not even happen for various reasons such as reconsiderations and further negotiations.

Originally Posted by stillalive

In the meantime, there are travel facilities to East Prussia and I hope a lot of people will go there to see one of the most beautiful regions of old Germany

Insterburg Reisen

Reiseservice Kaliningrad - Home

It seems that the oblast is interested and making outreach attempts at tourism along these lines to Germans and others by making the region's history part of it rather than expunged as the Soviets had intended along with attempted economic incentives, negotiations with the EU, etc. However, how to best do that given the geographic dynamics of the EU, NATO, and Schengen vis-à-vis Russia and/or its oblast has been tricky.

Originally Posted by stillalive

Russia will not give it up.
They need the ports for their baltic fleet
Apart from that it is a "We´re still here" reminder of Russia to Poland and the baltic States.

I´ve been to Kaliningrad last year with my 94 year old aunt who was born in Insterburg, now Tchernjakovsk.

To be honest, I´d love it to be part of the EU. It´s a beautiful region.

But the "shield against Iran" has destroyed all hopes of the oblast being part of the EU forever.

The "shield". seen by most Europeans as what it really is, a threat to Russia and an attempt to restart the cold war is no more than an idiotic attempt to start the arms race again and so keep millions of US jobs alive.
The second motive for Bush to install that "shield" is to disrupt EU unification by positioning Poland, Czechia and the Baltic States against EU interests.

Thank God, Bush will be history in a few weeks.
I only hope, the US rethink and Obama puts the "shield" where it should be to have any effect against Iran, namely to Turkey.

In the meantime, there are travel facilities to East Prussia and I hope a lot of people will go there to see one of the most beautiful regions of old Germany

Insterburg Reisen

Reiseservice Kaliningrad - Home

so it sounds like you are saying that the Czeckolsovakia, Poland, Estonia etc. are being pitted against the "EU" as in how again? Because they lived directly under the soviet machine and believe they know them perhaps better than at large Europe does and wants nothing to do with Russia in any way shape or form and feel the need to keep alert (hello Georgia?).

I'd say they have a point. As far as the shield being some huge piece of the US military industrial complex and is a reason to put it there based on a ill defined BDS outlook, is well, hoooey putting it politely. And I don't recall any complaints as to the US military industrial complex when it was shielding Europe for 60 years before the ussr died.....

Oh and the Shield if put in Turkey would be to close to Iran for it to work effectively, it needs to be where it is, it aint a conspiracy it telemetry/physics for god sakes.

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

The US did indeed react that way when the former Soviets tried to put missiles in Cuba and Nicaragua.

Yes as they were offensive weapons, most certainly. This mechanism/program does not change the basic equation- preponderance of force available to the Ussr , oops I mean Russia and the missiles capabilities and mission task, frankly cuba et al have little to do with the issue.

The question to me turns on whether it is intended that Russia be intimidated by this missile plan. My personal opinion is that the plan forms part of the reason considering the common opinions and concerns that Russian authorities are 'trying out their old uniforms,' if you will, insofar as its recent domestic and international behaviours. Those opinions and concerns especially surfaced with the Georgia affair. Now it seems like some re-heating has been happening, such as with Venezuela.

As for the more cynical geopolitical motives mentioned regarding US self-interests, there are always those kinds of Machiavellian people in any kind of government and I'm sure for any of those types it forms part of their support for it. However, such a plan needs the support of host nations. Why host nations would cooperate in something that comes at the expense of their own self-interest (like disrupting the EU) doesn't make much sense. Therefore, it seems genuinely believed concerns by the participating nations would be its motivation.

agreed, if poland et al don't want them it simple, they can say no.

Originally Posted by oleg

Gentlemen, sorry for intruding into the intimate sweet dreams with a small AD. If somebody lacks for the soil, Russian Federation is always glad to offer 2 square meters for everyone free of charge. The cost of completed fertilizer is not recompensed to the relatives or heirs of the client.

that fertilizer is already in place; bodies and emulsified bone fragments enrich soil....theres plenty there, if I had access to the Lubyanka files I could pick some prime real estate with very rich soil I bet.........

Originally Posted by Imperator

that fertilizer is already in place; bodies and emulsified bone fragments enrich soil....theres plenty there, if I had access to the Lubyanka files I could pick some prime real estate with very rich soil I bet.........

I used to think you were teenager and therefore sometimes had tried to determinate the source of your USSR-obsession and addiction to different linguistic artefacts and myths from that era. But now, as I have learned that you served in Germany so long ago, in fear of Soviet attack, ready to be swept, being overpilled with US propagandized Red-paranoya... I perhaps, leave this. You are real victim of Cold War, something kinda like Rembo was symbol of moral victims of Vietnam war.
Your youth and the Cold War go together, they are bound. I understand that everyone who would try to take away, wipe out and forget your Cold War, would claim something private, vague, very precious for you too, eh, first true love - this happened to you there back in West Germany, right?
Live with these carton demons of Lubyanka, KGB, and other stuff that guards your best memories of the past inside your head. I think, you are not ready to get rid of them. Waiting for them ressurect and animate one day, oh, how happy were you, had the Red Flag wave over Kremlin again... Sorry, first love can not be returned.

Originally Posted by oleg

I used to think you were teenager and therefore sometimes had tried to determinate the source of your USSR-obsession and addiction to different linguistic artefacts from that era. But now, as I have learned that you served in Germany so long ago, in fear of Soviet attack, ready to be swept, being overpilled with US propagandized Red-paranoya... I perhaps, leave this. You are real victim of Cold War, something kinda like Rembo was symbol of moral victims of Vietnam war.
Your youth and the Cold War go together, they are bound. I understand that everyone who would try to take away, wipe out and forget your Cold War, would claim something private, vague, very precious for you too, eh, first true love - this happened to you there back in West Germany, right?
Live with these carton demons of Lubyanka, KGB, and other stuff that guards your best memories of the past inside your head. I think, you are not ready to get rid of them. Waiting for them ressurect and animate one day, oh, how happy were you, had the Red Flag wave over Kremlin again... Sorry, first love can not be returned.

no comrade, just a victim of history....

Ok, If we all made the opinions clear about Kaliningrad, let's ponder the future of Hawaii. This remoted from the mainland US small beautiful piece of terra, which was acquired by the US in 1959, in the spotlight of upcoming changes and shifting of the economic power from the West to East, and considering it's cultural and historical identity, has great perspective as member of ASEAN. Your thoughts?

I am impressed not only by the knowledge you all have of this area of the world but also with the diversity of backgrounds and opinions.

It really looks to be a beautiful place. Alas that is my chief consideration in deciding to visit a new place.

Originally Posted by Sunshine

It really looks to be a beautiful place. Alas that is my chief consideration in deciding to visit a new place.

Try to find some pictures of it before the Russians came. Simply stunning.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

Try to find some pictures of it before the Russians came. Simply stunning.

I am sure it must have been.

Originally Posted by oleg

Ok, If we all made the opinions clear about Kaliningrad, let's ponder the future of Hawaii. This remoted from the mainland US small beautiful piece of terra, which was acquired by the US in 1959, in the spotlight of upcoming changes and shifting of the economic power from the West to East, and considering it's cultural and historical identity, has great perspective as member of ASEAN. Your thoughts?

The water barrier there is a barrier no matter what direction Hawaiians turn. It's an island chain in the Pacific Ocean not near any land (and the Far East is way further away from the US mainland). It isn't a remote exclave encircled by foreign countries that share common structures like the Kaliningrad Oblast. Although there are independence minded people there, if the Hawaiian residents in significant numbers debated and/or sought special arrangements, separation, etc, that would be visible. They don't because they do not have the same kinds of compelling issues. Puerto Rico's future, however, is a whole different hotly debated issue there.

I think I get what you are trying to say (i.e., turning the tables to see how everyone here would like the same said about their own nation's sections) and that is a fair point to bring up given citizens of nations value their national sovereignty and territory. Obviously its current status as a Russian state is a self-evident factor in the issues concerning it. But I think you'd agree that Kaliningrad Oblast has special issues and factors now affecting it compared to other oblasts. Certainly the residents there are looking to how best they want to address them and are forming all sorts of debates towards its future. As a Russian, it would be nice to hear your inputs on it.

Originally Posted by Voland

The Cathedral has already been reconstructed, with money from BMW and other german investors, who already are in Kaliningrad..........



Die Kathedrale von Kaliningrad

I didn't know that. Thanks.