Let's set the record straight. I never said what you quoted me saying, specifically, "Do the "cheese eating surrender monkeys", "freedom fries", "old Europe" or John Kerry looking "french" ring a bell ?"

No, Si modo, it has nothing whatever to do with Israel.

The reasons lies in the agressiveness and dictatorial approach the Bush govt. exerted towards european countries.
Also in Bushs constant - and partially successful - tries to split Europe before it is even united.

Feelings here are by no means anti-american, they are solely anti-Bush-politics and -deceivery.

Talk to american people who have lived here for some time and they will most probably tell you, that the average German only returns the favor when he himself is being attacked.
And even in that case it must have been a vicious attack to force such a response.

Re: the Spiegel article, please do read it again and very slowly.
Just flying over it will definitely give you a wrong impression.
But reading it up and checking the claims will make you see, that there is merely a slight exaggeration in the article.
IMO not enough to justify a public outcry.

I´ve seen far worse in US, british and dutch papers dealing with german doings.

Just check up those following Germanys no to Iraq.

But before you dig into this I wish you a merry season and "einen guten Rutsch" as we say in Germany. (The latter sentence btw originates from a jiddish expression.)

__________________
"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse
of a boom brought about by credit (debt) expansion.
The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner
as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit (debt) expansion,
or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved." - Ludwig von Mises

Thanks for that explanation! But could you please be a bit more specific about the agressive and dictatorial actions of GWB? I'm trying hard to thinks of some examples but am running on empty.

Hi Voland,

Hostility IMO are little too strong a word here. Criticism might be a better choice.
After all, we´re debating here and have to take each others views into account.

Though perhaps, with a little more care taken in reading, this thread might not even exist.

No offense to Tim, he´ll lose some of his exitability when he grows older.


Have a merry Christmas and use a safe sleigh for the "Rutsch"


OOps forgot:
Helmut Schmidt ist seit heute 90 (Helmut Schmidt turned 90 today)

All the best wishes from here to the best chancellor Germany ever had and will have for some time.

__________________
"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse
of a boom brought about by credit (debt) expansion.
The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner
as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit (debt) expansion,
or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved." - Ludwig von Mises

[QUOTE=anobsitar;1363455]Fröhliche Weihnacht auch nach Bayern.
Und halt die Ohren steif.

__________________
"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse
of a boom brought about by credit (debt) expansion.
The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner
as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit (debt) expansion,
or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved." - Ludwig von Mises

You know truthfully Der Spiegel is not any more anti american than they should be.

Bush even refused to talk to the german chancellor for close to two years after the No to Iraq.

US refuses Schröder a meeting with Bush - Telegraph

Bush and Schröder hold key Iraq talks | World news | guardian.co.uk

The measures described above were demanded by the White House.
A clear affront against german citizens.

And here the reaction of the people during the Mainz visit.
Of course it was explained as Rising-Anti-Americanism in the US.
That the White house had demanded this provocation was not mentioned -of course again.

WorldAndUS: Schröder and Bush, out of politeness...

Yet, when Obama came half of Berlin and thousands from all over Germany came running.
A clear demonstration of the Germans true feelings for America.

Rumsfelds agressive stance should be known to you.

There are several more incidents, though please excuse if I don´t go on. It´s two in the morning here and I´m in desperate need of some sleep.

If you insist I´ll collect some more links and PM them to you day after tomorrow.
No go tomorrow, it´s holy night after all.

__________________
"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse
of a boom brought about by credit (debt) expansion.
The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner
as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit (debt) expansion,
or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved." - Ludwig von Mises

I didn´t say that you stated that personally, but you claimed that the european press was anti -american. And my response was meant to imply that it makes more sense to discuss the role of the media on BOTH sides of the Atlantic in the rift between our countries that occured in 2003.
I completely second still alives post by the way.

Granted, the US and Germany had differences over the Iraq war, but I would not go so far as to call the politics of a perceived 'snub' and declaration of working together as agressive, and certainly not dictatorial.

As far as the German citizens being inconvenienced because of security required for a visit by a foreign head of state being agressive and dictatorial, the residents of NYC would have to think that about the heads of state of most nations. The regular gridlock the NYC residents must endure when one visits the UN is common. It happens in DC, too. Not many of us consider that increased security because a foreign head of state is in town to be an agressive and dicatatorial move.

We can find opinion pieces in most news outlets that are anti-(some nation).

Right, but what was your post ( anti-americanism in the european press) about then ?

As it exists, I'm trying to understand what sparks it.

What precisely are you reffering too ( still talking about the press) ?

Anti-Americanism in general, in your press. But, if you don't think it exists, then it doesn't matter, does it?

I do have to think that the mentality that required security for vistiting heads of state being equivalent to a dictatorial and agressive attitude comes from somewhere. Because, a common sense view would be that unless security is provided, expect no visits from foreign heads of state. That would snowball into another perception of a snub.

I didn´t say it doesn ´t exist, i think though it is beeing enormously exaggerated by YOUR press. My question was also meant to ask you for examples.
And since there apparently also is a certain "anti-europeanism" in the US that also erupted in 2003 ( at least according to the sources that i posted) i was asking myself if we are actually talking about two sides of the same coin.
I am not really getting your point about the Bush visit. It was the US side that demanded these security measures. These are not normal for visiting leaders in Germany, including american ones.