EU pressures czech president to sign Lisbon treaty - Page 7 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

anobsitar · #91 (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by stillalive

... Yet most of them, at least the older ones, frequently "go home" to put flowers on a grave (Ich muss der Mutter Blumen bringen) and chat with old neighbors. ...

Funny romanticism - and completly wrong because "old neighbors" are not existing. Czechs are living there instead of Germans now. 3.5 million Germans from different german nations (so called "Sudeten") lived once there in their own homeland in 1910. Compared with today we would speak about an additional 120 billion dollar BIP every year ín this area if no murder and banishment of the Germans had happened. I'm very dissapointed about the whole situation Vaclav Klaus produced - specially about the unbelievable hypocrisies of whole Europe in case of crimes like banishment, robbery and murder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI6zWm9lyVQ

anobsitar · #92 (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim

The Sudeten Germans are still a separate, defined entity today?

My understanding is that the Sudetan Germans lived in Silesia and parts of Moravia and Bohemia prior to 1945. I thought the entire population were violently expelled in 1945-47?

Yet this conversation seems to assume they are still a separate group. I thought they were resettled in western Germany?

Today the word would be "cultural genocide". Silesians, Bohemians, Moravians for example are dead - they are not existing anymore, because their former homelands are completly invaded from foreigners. But their descendants are still existing. In general no one knows really how many Germans were murdered in this area while and after World War II. The demon in all this questions is "political correctness" - because lots of idiots seem to believe history changes if people are defining past in their own egocentric way. It's really not a joke but until today no museum in Germany exists about this history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygNuRpwZqRU

anobsitar · #93 (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voland

Yes, most of them in Bavaria, forming a huge part of the votership of the bavarian christian social Union (CSU), a party also represented in the german federal governement. The CSU´s (at least in the past) often anti-polish and anti-czech positions are partially explained by having many voters among the expellees that were for decades not willing to give up their dream off a regermanized Silesia and Bohemia.
But with the war generation gone and the next generations grown up in another Germany the Sudeten Germans are history, in every aspect of the word.

Sounds in my ears like "Bad bavarian barbarians. Nearly like Sudeten-Jews, aren't they? Let's make history out of them." But I guess responsible for such an extreme idiotic view are specially german prussians like Verheugen. It was no one in Bavaria and/or no member of the CSU who told Vaclav Klaus that he has to show to everyone in the world that he is more than only an idiot. If he likes to have a head scarf with the words "I'm the winner of world wars 1+2(+3)" I'm sure he will find enough idiots who like to help him - but hopefully not in Bavaria.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWVZL...eature=related

anobsitar · #94 (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stapo

Your book and observations are probably true in a general sense, but guys like anobsitar ...

You are knowing nothing about me.

anobsitar · #95 (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stapo

... Voland and stariblabla (sorry for the unintented, non offensive meant misspelling) are not Germans ...

Both are Germans.

ThorHammer · #96 (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by stillalive

Read the link.
98% of them voted for the Nazi party in Czechias last pre-war elections.
Already in 1934, 44 of the 66 german seats in the Czech Parliament were held by Nazis.

And for todays Sudetendeutsche, I was talking about the "Landsmannschaften"
a term, btw created by the NSDAP and still used to this very day.

The views of these groups have not changed, nor were they ever reconsidered since 1938.

To attack the Czechs for their resettlement is ludicrous.
It was a decision of the Allies, not the Czechs.

Sure, the Czechs retaliated after WWII, but looking at it from a non-partisan level it seems understandable given what Czechs, Slowaks and Jews went through under the Nazis.

The "Landsmannschaften" OTOH are just lamenting about their plight, without being willing to admit, even consider their own failings and crimes.

Yet each single Sudetendeutscher was given tenfold of what he had at home.
And it´s still not enough for some.

In case, you compare Czechia with East-Prussia, forget it.
They cannot be compared.
East-Prussians were driven out of their country, with the vast majority receiving no compensation at all.
They built up their own lifes and most of them very sucessfully

The Sudeten guys were re-settled and had their asses gilded. No doubt, there was a handful left out of the money shower.
But these sadly were the ones once opposed to Nazism.

Come on over, Adam, and I promise you to get the facts here instead of the myths propagated by some and accepted by many.

All I write about this subject is based on facts and can easily be verified by the data available.

I am sorry Wolfgang, but I simply cannot agree with you here and I am honestly shocked you think like this.

You paint with a broad brush and practice collective guilt. That, IMO, is utter bullshit and intellectually dishonest. Furthermore, so many of the points you raise blantently contradict historical fact. I am sorry, but the 'data' disagrees with you. You use conjecture and personal opinions and then try to disguise them as fact.

I suggest you take at look at the book A Terrible Revenge. Beyond that, I am done with this subject.

ThorHammer · #97 (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by anobsitar

Both are Germans.

For once I agree with anobsitar. Should I be scared?

Tim · #98 (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

I am sorry Wolfgang, but I simply cannot agree with you here and I am honestly shocked you think like this.

You paint with a broad brush and practice collective guilt. That, IMO, is utter bullshit and intellectually dishonest. Furthermore, so many of the points you raise blantently contradict historical fact. I am sorry, but the 'data' disagrees with you. You use conjecture and personal opinions and then try to disguise them as fact....

For once I agree with Thorhammer. Should I be scared?

Quote:

I suggest you take at look at the book A Terrible Revenge. Beyond that, I am done with this subject.

Yes, I quite agree (again!) - a stunning book.

The very best book on this general subject, in my opinion, is After the Reich by Giles MacDonogh:

Amazon.com: After the Reich (9780465003372): Giles MacDonogh: Books

ThorHammer · #99 (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim

For once I agree with Thorhammer. Should I be scared?

We need an old priest and a young priest....

Slartibartfas · #**100** (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by stillalive

Very well said.

Barroso will be off at the end of his term for health reasons.
Sadly, he ´s a guy that talks a lot witout saying anything.
Acting is not one of his strenghts either.

So things are bound to get better, no matter who gets the job.
It won´t be anyone, tryeing to steal the limelight right now.

The foreign Sec will have a very tough job.
Not one of the national ambassadors will give up any of his rights,facilities and obligations.
So he/she will have to be a moderator too, bringing forth only what all the others agreed on.
This , by no way weakens his position, quite the contrary.
He´ll have all the ambassadors and all the Governments behind him.
A far stronger position than the US SoS has right now.

I would like to add something to this statement. The national diplomatic services are planned to be take part in the EU service also by personal rotation. You have to see it a bit like the European Central Bank. In fact the national ones still exist, but they are involved to such a big extend on European level and doomed to cooperate that they actually do. Moreover on bureaucratic level this can work out better than on political level. (It does not have to, but chances are not that bad)

European foreign policy will remain endangered of dead lock, but for the first time being a "foreign minister" who has substance, ie a diplomatic service. He will have if you want a power base, not one to force his position onto others, but to be a powerful broker in the EU for a common decently cohesive foreign policy.

Quote:

What will happen, already in the next election, is, that a lot more political heavyweights will go to Brussels.
The present part-time-politicians will disappear and we´ll have a real Euro Parliament.

Maybe the hope dies last.

Quote:

I would have loved to see Verheugen at the foreign job, but he refused.
Had he agreed, Merkel would have even started a boxing match just to get him through.
He has shouldered all that Barroso was able to throw at him and that was a lot.
Any guy followng him will have a job to fill his shoes.
And, most people like him except, of course, Anob.
The latter would accept only Benediktl as EU President and one of the Pius Brotherhood as Foreign Sec.

I don't really like Verheugen. But most importantly I think he is not a very good choice where you need a born diplomat for it. That does not mean he may not be an able person, but not for this job.

Slartibartfas · #**101** (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voland

Since my german grandmother was a Moravian - German and survived a long refugee treck in the winter decimated by russians raping women, czech militias trying to kill as many Germans as possible, hunger, cold and exhaustion, that ended up in Bavaria, I happen to be aware of the tensions the refugees awaited there. ( which was not actually surprising given their number and the fact that the bavarian population was also barely able to survive directly after the war)
My point was that the Sudeten Germans are largely gone as a huge political force now, that they , together with other expellee unions formed in the decades after WW II, mostly for the conservative parties.
What remains of them today are many family names all over Bavaria and a shrinking number of grayheads wearing old costumes and singing old songs on the meetings of the Landmannschaften. But german Bohemia and Silesia has lost all appeal for a younger generation that is living in the EU and is not defining them via their grandparents traditions anymore.
That was what I was trying to say.

My chemistry teacher was from Brünn, he was a small child when he was sent with his family on the Brünner Todesmarsch. ... and you know what? I had no idea until he died due to cancer only a few years after I had him as teacher and they told his story at the funeral. He actually did not make a big fuss about this all, not to us pupils at least, but he was said to have forgiven everyone for what happened back then, even though I can imagine that this march was quite traumatizing.

There exists an alternative to keep old rivalries and resentments alive forever.

stillalive · #**102** (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by anobsitar

Funny romanticism - and completly wrong because "old neighbors" are not existing. Czechs are living there instead of Germans now. 3.5 million Germans from different german nations (so called "Sudeten") lived once there in their own homeland in 1910. Compared with today we would speak about an additional 120 billion dollar BIP every year ín this area if no murder and banishment of the Germans had happened. I'm very dissapointed about the whole situation Vaclav Klaus produced - specially about the unbelievable hypocrisies of whole Europe in case of crimes like banishment, robbery and murder.

YouTube - die apokalyptischen reiter,Riders on the storm

Old neighbors still exist in Böhmen und Mähren.
Not in the Sudeten because your lot kiled or drove off the "old neighbors".

And "funny romanticism" as you call it is always better than greed and living forever in yesteryear.

Hitler is dead, the Nazis do not rule anymore, but you still do not realise that. 63 years after the war you still cling to the German Reich mentality.

You pretend to be christian, yet the love thy neighbor is not in the least part of your mental make up.

And you do not realise, that all your confessions are nil and void according to the teachings of the catholic church, as you knowingly never in your life confessed to harrassing and molesting others and spouting hatred.

May the Lord have mercy on you.

stillalive · #**103** (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

I am sorry Wolfgang, but I simply cannot agree with you here and I am honestly shocked you think like this.

You paint with a broad brush and practice collective guilt. That, IMO, is utter bullshit and intellectually dishonest. Furthermore, so many of the points you raise blantently contradict historical fact. I am sorry, but the 'data' disagrees with you. You use conjecture and personal opinions and then try to disguise them as fact.

I suggest you take at look at the book A Terrible Revenge. Beyond that, I am done with this subject.

Consider for a moment, Adam, that you look at things from very far away while I sit right in the middle of it.

98 % in my mind is collective.
Especially as the remaining 2 % did nothing to stop the others.

If you consider Spartacus a hero, you should at least not blame the Czechs.
The Nazis kept ALL of them as labor slaves. They forced them into mines or to work in war related industries. That´s fact.

Fact is also, that there was an "Endlösung der Tschechenfrage"
Like the Jews, the Czechs were to be used as slaves as long as needed and then to be driven off their country or be killed.

This is, what not a single one of the "historical" apologist books mentions.
The documents still exist and anyone has access to them except those kept in Bavaria.
The CSU does not like to offend her most fervent voters, that´s the reason.

Another thing you do not seem to know is, that while most Nazi leaders of the Reich were either executed or imprisoned for a long time, those from the Sudeten were given jobs in Government, mostly in Bavaria.

Had you read my links you would know this.

In no way do I contradict historical facts. Quite the contrary, I point to facts were most authors just "forget" to mention them.

I do in no way claim, that the Czechs were right in their actions against the Sudeten germans.
I abhor, what they did as I abhor ANY killing of helpless persons.
I consider the Benes decrees simply atrocious.

But I can understand, that a people, who stood at the brink of extinction takes revenge on those who wanted to kill them off.

If you believe, it was right to kill Sadam and his helpers, if you consider the Taliban worth killing, if you are against the muslims in Darfur, then you just can not excuse the Sudetendeutsche.
Not all of them were actively involved in the mistreatment and the plans to eliminate the Czechs, but they did nothing whatever to prevent it.

Yet, when they came over, they were given four times as much in compensation as all other Nazi victims taken together.
They were given land, housing, food, anything they wanted, while the rest of us starved and lived in ruins.

And still they want more.

Look at this to find out about their spread and their activities.

Sudetendeutsche Landsmannschaft Bayern

Try to find a single word of repentance.

There is none.

Just the old woe of what the evil Czechs did to them and the demand to have the Sudeten taken from Czechia and made part of Germany, with all the Czechs driven out of the "homeland".

Beyond that, show me one single author who published about Sudeten in english who has no roots in the Sudeten.

There is none.

All you will ever read are one sided stories.

I can only hope, that one day you will come over here to find the truth for yourself.
And then you really will be shocked.

Use Google, Adam, try to get and read german sites, you will find all I stated here and more.

Finally, an episode from my youth, I was about eight at the time:

One of our next door neighbors was a protestant pastn in Silesia.
I did like the family a lot.
One day, the Pastor seemed very upset about something, and he kept shouting:
You got to do everything yourself in this part of the land. At home at least we had the Czechs.
When I asked him, what he meant by that he said
Well, they had to do the "lower work" for us.
So, inquisitive a I was I asked if they had been so rich, they could employ peolple to work for them he replied:
They got their food and our old clothes, that was more than enough for what they did.

That sentence got stuck in my head.
Only years later did I realise, what he had meant by that.

So I asked the Pastors wife about their Czech servants. And she told me, that they got no pay, they were "given to them" by the government. She said:" They were so lazy, we had to have soldiers to get them to work at all."

Ever since then I´ve been interested about Silesia and what happened there.
In those times, the fifties and til late into the sixties it was extremely hard to find out anything, then, in the seventies I had access to some documents and I was horrified by what I read.

Which brings me to the point.

If I dislike, how other nations mistreat people, can I really accept mistreatment and genocide committed by my own people ?

anobsitar · #**104** (**permalink**) 3 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by stillalive

... May the Lord have mercy on you.

Okay - you don't believe in god - and you don't know anything about me or the way I'm really thinking and feeling - nevertheless: Thank you. I'm convinced god will hear this - and the little drop of acid you threw at me will become the sweetest water of life.

YouTube - einKlang - Wade in the water - Gospel/A cappella