Thread: Switzerland bans minarets

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

Ok, but how? I fail to see how freedom has been limited here in any way, shape, or form.

You seriously fail to see it ? As a person who regularly criticizes Germany for banning Nazi propaganda ? Switzerland as a country that claims to be a neutral bastion of human rights discriminates a group solely on the base of religion ?
This ban is a stupid political signal and will not eliminate any migration related problems ( that Switzerland has to a far lesser extent than its neighbours anyway) It will instead damage Switzerlands credibility as a neutral mediator in the eyes of the muslim world, wether as mediator between Armenia and Turkey or representing the USA in Iran. But most importantly it will disturb the relations between swiss Muslims and the majority society , underlining exactly the isolation from society that the makers of the referendum allegedly wanted to adress. And that for the sake of four minarets is more than ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Denis

I don't agree with you here, I don't think Islam in an intolerant and fascist ideology. On the other hand, what some people think and do in the name of Islam is, but it's a minority. The problem is that the tolerant muslims, maybe 90% of them, always keep quiet about abuses made in the name of Islam, whereas they should protest because it's killing the reputation and image of their religion through the western civilisation.

Of course, this is only one part of Islam. We may not forget that all kind of religions have a certain potential of violence and extremism. Arnaud-Amaury("Kill them all, surely the Lord discerns which are his") and Mother Theresa both lived and worked after the bible.

Yet nowadays moderate Islam is very "silent". Where are the protests of European muslims whenever a Muslim leader verbally attacks Israel, when Afghan muslims burn down schools for girls, when women are tortured in Sudan, when tourists are kidnapped in Tunisia... all these crimes are made in the name of Islam, no reaction by "moderate Muslims".

There is a reaction though when Danish caricaturists dare to make a picture of their prophet, when France bans the headscarf in public buildings or when Switzerland bans minarets.

This makes it very hard to belief that 90% of the Muslims are moderate, or do they just not care what happens in the name of their religion?

You may be right that a ban of minarets doesn't change all this. But like the headscarf the minaret is a symbol. It's a symbol for muslim power in a public sphere which of course leads to fears of islamisation.

Originally Posted by Voland

You seriously fail to see it ? As a person who regularly criticizes Germany for banning Nazi propaganda ? Switzerland as a country that claims to be a neutral bastion of human rights discriminates a group solely on the base of religion ?
This ban is a stupid political signal and will not eliminate any migration related problems ( that Switzerland has to a far lesser extent than its neighbours anyway) It will instead damage Switzerlands credibility as a neutral mediator in the eyes of the muslim world, wether as mediator between Armenia and Turkey or representing the USA in Iran. But most importantly it will disturb the relations between swiss Muslims and the majority society , underlining exactly the isolation from society that the makers of the referendum allegedly wanted to adress. And that for the sake of four minarets is more than ridiculous.

Well I wouldn't count too much into it.

It's not a ban on mosques, it's a ban on sytle signed up for by 26 % of the Swiss population, due to whatever reasons.

Sure some fuckheads in riciducouls unimportant, but highly emotional countries ( aka Pakistan) will run havok on the street, but when it comes down to it nothing big will happen.

The Swiss will not lose their rich Arab clients, countries like the UAE or Saudi Arabia will not stop their diplomatic ties with them and in a few weeks it's all forgotten.

In a way this descision might be real good for Switzerland and all it's citizens; The muslims now know what a certain percentage feel about them, the majority of the Swiss who either didn't care to vote or voted against it in slightly smaller numbers than those for the ban now know the stand of their fellow citizens and so the question what Swissness and Swiss values really mean is out there to be answered.

The discussions following this, will be real healthy and are much needed.

Originally Posted by Febobo

Yet nowadays moderate Islam is very "silent". Where are the protests of European muslims whenever a Muslim leader verbally attacks Israel, when Afghan muslims burn down schools for girls, when women are tortured in Sudan, when tourists are kidnapped in Tunisia... all these crimes are made in the name of Islam, no reaction by "moderate Muslims"..

You surely don't pay much attention to what the moderates are saying / doing, apart from that, why should Muslims of all kinds/races, sects/countries feel responsibility for things done by fuckheads in far away lands?

I mean I don't feel responsible for every shit another white/ European/ Christian might be doing, so why should Achmed feel responsible for the actions of another brown/Asian/Arab/Muslim?

Originally Posted by Febobo

Yet nowadays moderate Islam is very "silent". Where are the protests of European muslims whenever a Muslim leader verbally attacks Israel, when Afghan muslims burn down schools for girls, when women are tortured in Sudan, when tourists are kidnapped in Tunisia... all these crimes are made in the name of Islam, no reaction by "moderate Muslims".

There is a reaction though when Danish caricaturists dare to make a picture of their prophet, when France bans the headscarf in public buildings or when Switzerland bans minarets.

This makes it very hard to belief that 90% of the Muslims are moderate, or do they just not care what happens in the name of their religion?

"Moderate Islam" is far from beeing silent. They just rarely make headlines in western media. That is a difference. And foaming mullahs just make better fotos than ordinary people just going about their everyday lifes in Kairo, Damaskus or Beirut.
And countries like Syria, Iran or Egypt usually don´t allow demonstrations, So if something like the caricature protests takes place and the police are just standing by you can almost be sure that this is staged by powers with connection to the regime. And for reason that have rather little to do with Islam.

Originally Posted by Steve

Hey, ten years ago, I would've told you that I would've doubted that terrorists would fly jets into the World Trade Center, but it happened...

Well, firstly the case will go to the European court of human rights, to which Switzerland is a signatory ( not to be confused with the EU).
The court has just recently ruled against the italian governement and the catholic church that wanted to keep crosses and crucifixes to be mandatory in school class rooms ( violation of state neutrality towards religion) but a couple of years ago in favour of the turkish governement and declared the head scarf ban at universities in the country did NOT violate religious freedom. The verdict in this case is going to be interesting.

Originally Posted by Febobo

A couple of years ago, it would have been impossible to see debates like this. It would have been judged "racist" or "islamophobic".

The big problem is a lack between the published opinion and the real opinion of the people. Since a longer time I make now nearly no difference anymore between right wing Nazis and left wing Nazis in case of their wrong ideologies.

I'm a little sad about lots of statements here, because some right wing Nazis are trying to use this referendum now for their nonsense.

But I'm trusting in Swiss - specially in case of "freedom of religion". I'm sure no one in Switzerland likes to suprees any opinion or religion. Im quite sure there are only political reasons for this decision existing. A minaret and a churchtower are not the same.

I'm trusting in this case in the people in Switzerland like nearly no one else in the world - maybe except Scandinavians - not to do something on ideologic reasons. No - there must be a serios "existential" background for this all, what is not so easy explainable now in the firts moments.

Nowadays people start to realize what Islam is and what it is all about. It's an intolerant, basically fascist ideology, its final aim is world domination.

This answer is not satisfying - specially because it's completly unclear what "fascism" mean in this case. But I would say Antisemitism and Islam are explosive. And for sure lots of European "Antifascists" would enjoy it if all Nazis in Israel would be killed - but they are very tolerant as long as Israel is not defending Jews.

The European dilemma is that we always want to be the "nice guy", abundant tolerance towards intolerant regimes is one result.

That's always a dilemma. Communcation is always very important - and even the devil has rights.

But, to go with Schopenhauer here: if we tolerate intolerance, don't we get intolerant by that? or to say it in a different way: to fight for tolerance, don't we have to be intolerant towards intolerance?

This is the question in the moment. I'm absolutely not unhappy about that the people in Switzerland broke a kind of taboo, because the politicians in Europe and the whole world (UNO) should stop only to think in categories of their own political classes and abstrahotic ideas.

"Migration" - what is indeed a worldwide desaster because nearly no one leaves his homecountry if everything is okay only because he likes to find new challenges - became a kind of solution instead to be seen as a problem furthermore.

Basically I hate the idea to mix the sociological sickness "dying nations in Europe" with the sociological sickness "overshooting population growth in Muslimia" - so people should migrate to Europe. Easy "solution" - but this helps the people in Europe nearly nothing and this helps also not other nations with an high population growth. Every sickness needs another medicine. But if someoen is mixing sicknesses then this doesn't mean something becomes healthy. Two sicknesses the same time are eight times as terrible as "only" one sickness.

But I'm living also in the fear some people don't see the difference between this sociological problems on one side and psychology and spirituality on the other side. So let me say it's very urgent for all people in Europe to respect every life - specially the life of migrants. Let me say this although such a sentence should be completly superflous. If only one Muslim in Europe has to suffer because of violent idiots I will accuse them personally in the last days of this world in front of god. Not only religon and psychology also biology - a natural science - can tell us all: We are indeed all brothers and sisters - and it's not the fault of the people themsleve if they are often misued like figures in a bad game from their political leaders and/or ignorants. It's not the fault of the people if things are going wrong from time to time and if there must be corrections no one should forget the sisterly love to everyone.

On the other hand I was a little shocked as a german newpaper wrote something like "referendums are not bad but never a referndum should exist in case of a questions of human rights like it was in Switzerland" - I thought first I'm in the wrong film as I heard this. A minaret is a minaret - it's not a mosque. It are some stones- nothing else. It's a kind of clock - but not a human being nor is it really important for freedom of religion.

In the opposit: In all Europeans states lots and lost of children are malicious killed in the most save situation of their whole life where they are protected from nature in the best possible way: in their own mothers. As I thought about this in nearly the same moment I became angry about that nearly no one seems to know anymore what humand rights are really. Whatever. I'm not able to change this now. But I hate it very much what "antifascists" and "(Neo-)Nazis" are doing in case of all this serios problems. They all are forgetting often all human beings because of wrong tolerance and of wrong intolerance.

But somehow I'm sure Europe will find its way also if less abstrahotism and more realism would not be bad. Schiller wrote the famous sentence of Switzerland: "Nun lasst uns sein ein einig Volk von Brüdern - in keiner Not uns trennen noch Gefahr" and he wrote one of the most important textes of whole Europe - The Ode of Joy. Perhaps it's good to remember in the moment beacause after 250 years sometimes some people are forgetting a little what's really important:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZJ1Tgf4JL8