No, Christians CERTAINLY did not push into "Muslim" territory for the simple fact Christianity was an established religion when Muhammad was sitting in his cave scribbling on the walls.

Also there was NEVER any debate EVER that Muslism and Christians believed in secular Gods..

Now, I cant rule out that SOME might have been "offended" by that thought for bias or racist reasons but there has never been any theological debate.

Muhammad was no "diplomat" for Islam.

The thing you are right about however is the fact that the two religions generally had little contact until Islam started expanding like wild fire.

Besides I have no idea how religious roots play into modern religious philosophy...

The modern premise under Sharia Law is that man is Gods warrior and its up to man to enforce his [Gods] law.

Now thats NOT all Muslims BUT it does pertain to those that subscribe to Sharia Law.

__________________
Sic Semper Tyrannis






http://www.myspace.com/swoop187muzic

I've never even given my oppinion on the matter. I passive agressively stated that you couldn't support yours, that's all.

Indeed it was brutal. It was also in the name of god, which contradicts with a previous statement of yours.

Christians NEVER killed or went to war in the name of God

True, combined with Geert Wilders. Or at least, that's what it started out with.

Nor did anyone claim that the muslims were justified.

So Judea wasn't Muslim controlled territory before the Crusades?

Really? I think Pope by Pope Eugene III, for example, might disagree.

He certainly had to wage a political struggle, and when that failed a military one, to convert the Arab polytheists.

It shows. Christianity, at least, grew directly from another Abrahamic religion (Judaism). Islam, on the other hand, didn't. It came about from a pagan society. Scripture never made the connection like it did with Christianity and Judaism, Mohammed (a man) did.

For the record I believe that Jews and Christians worship the same god, and that muslims probably do as well. However, I am not totally sold when it comes to the muslim connection.

__________________
I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

Thanks for the clarification; I wasn't sure what you meant.

There was more than just that one incident, was there not?

As for Crusades and other stuff, Islamic bandits attacked first, all over the Med and even pushed into France and threatened Tours at one time; see Charles Martel, for one history. The Crusades were merely payback against a still extant threat.

According to Islamic scholars, Jews, Christians, and Moslems worship the same god, but that doesn't seem to stop them from regarding the others as vermin to be extinguished or kept in third class status in Muslim countries to this day, so I find it hard to work up any sympathy or sense that they are 'victims' of any sort. As long as their religion is synonymous with politics, they will be enemies of of all secular governments and should be treated as such.

Again, why are Wilders' views 'hate speech' and the Koran isn't? If it is okay to ban Mein Kampf except to scholars, then it is also okay to ban the Koran, by Dutch legalese.

The stuff on the Talmud is merely stupid; it is merely a history of philosophic thoughts and reasoning, and has changed over time, which is a testament to both Judaism's intellectual and spiritual dynamism as well as Christianity's, something almost entirely lacking in Islam, again almost entirely due to the frequent massacres of 'heretics' by the psychopathic, genocidal nature of the Koran itself; it is a very different type of text than the Torah or the Bible, and certainly very different form the 'new' testament, even the Catholic version of the new testament. The general rise in literacy made 'reformations' inevitable in Christianity and Judaism, something that is not possible with Islam, as shown by the fact that most of the terrorist criminals and their fans are well educated vermin in general.

__________________
"The real question of life after death isn't whether or not it exists, but even if it does, what problems this really solves." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

"A day without sunshine is, you know, night."- Shannon

I agree that he's a populist etc.

But it's also stupid to try to tackle him by going to court. It's possible that they make a anti-establishment martyr of him. The same happened in Belgium with The Vlaams Blok. The party leaders openly admit that the sentence for racism was a good thing for their party.

In the elections shortly after the conviction, election scores boomed from 15% to 25% in Flanders, and it became the biggest party of Belgium.

If Wilders succeeds in turning the debate into establishment vs him, the chances are there he will win. After all, it's crisis time. And everyone knows that people radicalise in difficult times.

Parties shouldn't fight other parties in court, they should fight them in debates and by good governance.

__________________

Were there Christians and Jews in Judea pre Muhammad?

I call that "opinion" on behalf of Eugene BUT I guess under Catholic law whatever Eugene says has to be true.

I would call what Eugene did more like refuting the notion out of disgust.

He certainly tried to establish Islam, I don't know if I would call it a struggle.

Also there's too many factors to list for "war" but "difference" is #1

Muhammad claimed he was a prophet sent from God, the same "God" worshiped by Christians of the period.

In short he claimed Jesus existed but was a fake and he was the REAL deal.

Same God, two different prophets and two sets of rules... That has all the makings for a great religious war.

I dont think Muhammads "I come in peace from God but Jesus is bullshit and I'm the read deal" teachings went over well with the already established Christians of the period.

__________________
Sic Semper Tyrannis






http://www.myspace.com/swoop187muzic

I was thinking the same thing, "Didn't the Belgians try this?", but wasn't sure if I had my historical facts straight. I agree with you here. Typically, political moves like this have a nasty habit of backfiring.

__________________
I am a liberal, a classical liberal. Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. In Europe they are glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are.

Courage, Truth, Honor, Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, Perseverance

Although 40-50 million babies are murdered every year within their own mothers from the so called "civilized world" there exists no legitimation of only one christian confession to do so. Murder is in all cases not allowed and it's always murder. But I'm asking myself what this has to do with the Islam and why Christians have to explain their religion and its morality if the people don't understand what the Islam is and why Muslims are doing crimes.

__________________
Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Etruh7Ch8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JkHBC5lDs

Sorry the Bible doesn't call for unbelievers to be killed.
The Old testament, except for the Jewish religion, is considered historical text only. The New Testament was to replace the ways of the old.
It is in the New Testament where "forgiving thy neighbor of his trespasses" "remove the tree limb from your own eye before calling out the fleck that is in anothers"
"Pray for those that trespass against you" etc. etc. etc.
There is a G I G A N T I C difference between the Koran and the Bible.

Having said that, I am no scholar of the Koran, I am not aware of text within the Koran that is now considered "old ways to be discarded". If so, then I stand in error.

__________________

The government cannot give without first taking.

Timothy McVeigh was a christian.

The inquisition was run based upon christian theology.

The Zionist Israeli's are taking Palestinian lives at a 10-to-1 ratio in order to build more illegal settlements on land that is not theirs.

Fucked up people are fucked up people whether they are atheist, christian, muslim or jew. Sometimes the fucked-up-ness gets institutionalized as it was with the inquisition, as it is with Israel, and as it is with wahabbi-style islam.

Muslims think that Christians are Polytheists, because all Christians are believing in the triunite god: god father, god son and the Holy Ghost. (Special: Mohamed spoke in the Koran about the Holy Family instead of the triunite god: God father, God son and mother Mary). Christians are believing that Muslims are believing in the same god, because there is only one god. I guess the Christians Mohammed spoke in the Koran about never existed. It seem to be only some confusing ideas from him.

In my point of view one problem is specially the Holy Spirit - because Mohammed misused the position of the Holy Spirit and he installed himself instead of the Holy Spirit. I'm thinking this blocks spiritual ways and is perverting human laws to absolute rules - but there is only one god so also human laws are no god. Nothing is god except god but god is also in everything and everyone has contact to god. It makes absolutely no sense to fight against atheists, polytheists or members of other religions for the allmighty god: He loves all human beings.

__________________
Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Etruh7Ch8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JkHBC5lDs

You obviously know nothing about the history of christian religion. Christians NEVER killed in the name of God? I guess the crusades and witch trials are all made up by liberals, eh? That's only 2 examples of a long list.

I'd say if we ban the Koran we don't stop there and ban all religious books.

__________________
"People try nonviolence for a week and when it doesn't work they go back to violence which hasn't worked for centuries"
Theodore Roszak

The most people don't know what the inquisition really was. The people in the times of the inquisition were often very happy to be acused from the inquisition. One number - because our ages are believing in numbers - in 500 years the inquisition in whole Europe exectued 1200 times a death penalty. On areas where the inquisition was mighty nearly no witches and sorcerers were burnt and so on and so on. Most people have a very confusing picture of the real history because of the entertainment industry. In the 19th century for example we installed a torture chamber for tourists what never existed in history and somewhere was created the "iron Maiden" and "chastity belts" - a lot of "knowledge" is phantasy and nothing else.

One problem of the inquisition was it that it is not allowed to kill someone in the christian religion - what was wrong interpreted in this times: shedding of blood was not allowed. That was the reason to burn people to death, because "blood" was not involved. A very sick behavior. No excuse possible. Another idea was it that everyone had to recognize what he is doing wrong because only if someone understands what he is doing wrong, he is able to change his behavior so he can find the right way to god. So the people also always needed a confession from a criminal and the eveidence of a crime was not enough. This leaded to torture. It's is not excuseable - but it was in this way. Specially in the modern times 15xx and later there existed lots of confusions and superstitions.

__________________
Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Etruh7Ch8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JkHBC5lDs

No, that was a Mel Brooks scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oppHeMlaLVM

Yes, who wouldn't be happy to be tortured for something he believes in or for something that was totally made up? A reason to be happy indeed.

__________________
"People try nonviolence for a week and when it doesn't work they go back to violence which hasn't worked for centuries"
Theodore Roszak