The problem is not Wilders. He's only a symptom. In Austria a name is Haider or in Germany a name is Rieger. Both are - sad for me that I have to say it in this way - fortunatelly dead, although I know dead is not really a solution. This people are like a seismograph for political might - so they are articulating the fear of the people. The political standard answer is: This fear is irreal - but in the end it is not unreal. How can it be an unreal fear if the same time politicians are speaking about "war on terror" and thousands of european soldiers are outside their own countries to fight against nearly invisible "enemies". ... By teh way: the fear grows and grows the less people are able and/or allowed to articulate their fears in public.

__________________
Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Etruh7Ch8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JkHBC5lDs

^
hero.



-----------------
In the Netherlands (and many other European countries) claims of racism, hate speech etc are abused for party politics. Very dangerous imo.

I see the evolution of immigration policies as such: denial, confrontation and acceptance. The Netherlands are past the first phase.
Wilders represents the second phase. This is a waiting game: Wilders has no acceptable or real solutions so we have to wait till the PVV did it's work as a zweeppartij, as we call it in Dutch (I don't know the translation). A party that influences the mainstream parties in its direction at certain topics, without getting in a majority or in the government. A party that feeds the debate by propagating extreme points of view.

After a few years, the establishment parties will probably steal some ideas from the PVV or they will try to bring some solutions to the problems that the PVV adressed. Because if they don't do that, they will lose a lot of votes.

I think these extreme parties are important and that their freedom of speech is important. They do have a function in politics. They are good in finding problems that the elite forget about, they're good in reflecting the views of the underbelly of society.

That off course doesn't mean you have to accept such populist parties in governing organs. Going in debate will do the trick. We all know Wilders is an idiot and has no real solutions. It can't be that hard to break him verbally? Than why taking him to court? Politicians should talk to him in public, let him play his role and tear his solutions apart. But they have to accept that the problems that Wilders talks about are real.

Once the Dutch establishment parties accept that something went wrong in immigration policies, the extremist parties lose their weapons. If all parties agree that something went wrong and start doing something about it, the PVV will have no reason of existance anymore.
You have to accept that there is a problem, before you can fix it.
And I do think that there is an immigration problem. It's not invincible, but we do have to stop ignoring it in order to fix it.
When these troubles are fixed, the third phase in immigration evolution starts: acceptance. Everybody will be dancing in a circle, sharing lolly pops and having a jolly good time.

I hope the PVV will grow really fast and stun the Dutch establishment. The faster this is over, the better.

__________________

I've explained why, you've read the responses. Have not been able to understand them (even though they have been explained, step by step) from this point on it's appearantly just above you intellectual grade.

Arguments about millions of immigrants usually find the terms "money" and "work" in them.

Don't sweat it, it's tricky stuff.

Maybe you're right: If god would not help me I would not survive for only one day.

So money and work are the only reasons why money making atheistic businessmen (I prefer to call them: "dancers around the golden calve") brought millions of Muslims to Europe while they did not take care the same time for the spiritual needs of Muslims. It is their job to carry the garbage of the Euroipean societeis (¿maybe including the garbage "Christianity"?) away?

Whatever: Also work is very worthful - specially because it is part of the human dignity to be needed from other people and for sure to carry garbage away is a very important joib. But I would not see only one reason why a Muslim should be only a lttle thankful in people who are thinking in the way like you are doing. I guess you like to say Wilders is a kind of criminal - because he's something like an evil Nazi (and maybe this is true - I dont know, I'm not interested in him) - while you are a kind of antifascistic hero because you are one of the good Nazis.

One question: What's your plan how to solve this problems Europeans created in the last few decades if 'Europe' (whoever this people are) would run out of money and wagework? And anohter question: How long do you think will Muslims need to erase Christianity compeltly from Europe like they did it in lots and lots of other areas in the world? Why should the people in Europe be without fear in case of Muslims, althiugh the resulös of a history of more than a thousand years is speaking in a completly other way? "Money" and "work" will solve all this problems? How? What's your plan except "reality is not existing and all other people except me are anyhow only idiots"? How do you like to understands Muslims with only the two expressions "money" and "work"? How do you liek to understand fear wuth obly the words "money" and "work"? How do you like to live wth your intellectual high grade while only using "work" and "money"? ...

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/4208922/Gregorian_band_Hymn

Remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come and the years approach when you will say, 'I find no pleasure in them'— before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars grow dark, and the clouds return after the rain; when the keepers of the house tremble, and the strong men stoop, when the grinders cease because they are few, and those looking through the windows grow dim; when the doors to the street are closed and the sound of grinding fades; when people rise up at the sound of birds, but all their songs grow faint; when people are afraid of heights and of dangers in the streets; when the almond tree blossoms and the grasshopper drags itself along and desire no longer is stirred. Then people go to their eternal home and mourners go about the streets. Remember him—before the silver cord is severed, and the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, and the wheel broken at the well, and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

__________________
Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Etruh7Ch8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JkHBC5lDs

I don't mind continuing this discussion, but for that to work we need to actually make a response to the other guys argument. A few things that are repeating in your posts.

Atheists brought muslims here: Untrue, goverments brought them here. Quite a few of them governments with christian parties ruling them. Yes, also christians brought them here.

It's about muslims: Untrue, it's not about their religion, or anyone's religion.

Also: Nazi's have no part in this discussion. I'm trying to discuss history, not politics.

I don't have a plan, nor do I have the fear that muslims will replace my culture (nor do I fear that they will replace christianity). I never claimed I had a plan, I'm merely explaining that the massive scale immigration had nothing to do with religion.

The question about the work force running low is actually a very good one. Birthrates in europe are below 2 and the work is not going to go away. On top of that, because of the babyboom, the ratio of working people to retired people (in Holland) is going to switch from 4 : 1 to 2 : 1. In order to pay for that we need to keep the economy growing and people working. There are already voices claiming that this can only be done by allowing Turkey into the EU (which would be like a second immigration wave).

Strange - isn't it? A member of a dying nation is discussing about work. What - for heavens sake - is so important that you have to work it out before you are dying without descendants?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGnmu...eature=related

__________________
Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Etruh7Ch8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JkHBC5lDs

Nice "taboo" - but nowhere today in the world where Christians are in a minority Christians are able to live in freedom and peace. Everywhere where Christians are living in a majority everyone is able to live in freedom and peace. And in all Christian countries where Muslim came in they replaced in the last centuries all Christains including their ethnicities.

Perhaps you are happy about if the Christians are dying in whole Europe but on what reason are you saying they should not live in fear to die? Are you a priest?

__________________
Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Etruh7Ch8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JkHBC5lDs

Please - what happened with Jews in the Netherlands? How many escaped? No good questions? Ts ts ts. If you are discussing with me there is always place for Nazis minimum as long as I am on the death list of this idiots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkmFg...eature=related

__________________
Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Etruh7Ch8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JkHBC5lDs

Amazing stuff ... Wilders is a 'madman', a 'lunatic', equated with Haider in Germany, etc. What a load of nonsense. Obviously he has the Euro Establishment and the 'Globalist' money bags worried if they have to resort to such infantile and blatantly false smears.

And, re Hitler, most of the Muslim world loved Hitler; Mein Kampf has been on the Top Ten best sellers lists all over the ME and other Muslim countries for going two decades now, and many Nazis fled to the ME after the war, including Egypt and Syria, where many of them helped train Feyhadeen terrorist gangs like Arafat's. Since the Netherlands' government likes to fund antisemitic propaganda through financing supposedly 'independent 'NGO's', it would be more like the Establishment is angry at his support for Israel, not a popular position in Europe at all and of course where 'New Leftists' and Neo-Nazis get along great is their mutual virulent antisemitism, so its only natural they love Muslim extremism as well; they are all one big happy family there in Europe when it comes to Jews, and 'Populists' like Wilders are a threat to the status quo, obviously.

To equate Wilders positions with Hitler's is laughable crap; his position is very anti-fascist, unlike the Eurocrats who are afraid they'll lose their cheap dishwashers and laundry workers. If their is a 'shortage' of garbage collectors, then you need to pay more to attract employees; it's pretty simple stuff to attract workers by pay8ing competitive wages. It isn't rocket science.

__________________
"The real question of life after death isn't whether or not it exists, but even if it does, what problems this really solves." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

"A day without sunshine is, you know, night."- Shannon

There is no dying nation.

Untrue, example: Indonesia.

I realize that discussing with you involves nazi claims. This, however, is not a good thing.

How many children per white woman in the Netherlands? If it's the same like in Germany then the reproduction rate is only 50%. Every generation is about 50% smaller than it shoud be per generation: 100% -> 50% -> 25% -> 12.5% -> 6.25% -> 3.125% ... in only 5 generations. Something is wrong - very wrong - if the people in Europe don't like children anymore. The homo neanderthaliensis is full of energy compared with the northern type of Europeans of today - and they are dead now since a few thousand years.

I don't know anything about Indonesia. How became it a Muslim nation? No war - no violence - no violation of the human rights? What was/were the religion/s in Indonesia before it became a part of Muslimia? What should Europe learn from Indonesia immediatelly?

A serios question: Do you not feel like one of the worst idiots in the world if you are saying Nazis are history? Hitlers "Mein Krampf" is indeed a bestseller everywhere in the Muslim world. Antisemitism is a growing standard everywhere in the world. Even Jews are called "Nazis" genociding Palestinians. If I think about the Goldstone report I'm still wondering about the unbelievable irrealism of so many nations in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIzuxzZTjkQ

__________________
Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Etruh7Ch8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JkHBC5lDs

50% would mean 1 child per 2 parents. This is not true, nowhere in Europe. Birthrates in the netherlands are 1.7 for every female. Lowest are Tzjechie and Slovenia with 1,2. Average is 1.5, there isn't a country in Europe with 1.0.

Indonesia has the largest muslim population in the world since somewhere around 500 ad. Christians, buddhists, hinduists, indiginous relgions and muslims live side by side. I wouldn't say there is no violence (bali terrorist attacks) or that everything is 'honkey dory' (there used to be a lot of political unrest), but in general the people of indonesia are very tolerant and moderate and the unrest did not find it's source in religion.

Europe can learn from this that it's possible to live side by side with large groups of muslims.

No, I don't. I'm saying that the situation today is different to such an extent from the situation 65 years ago that every comparison is wrong.

Therefor if you claim for someone to be a neo-nazi, then this could be correct. However, the claim that someone is A nazi is always wrong.

no comment

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3VrggQW7tk

By the way: I started to inform myself about Indonesia and within only 2 minutes I found 10000 killed Christians and 100000 killed people in other regions in Indonesia including a kind of genocide. All this seemed to happen in the last 10 years. If in Europe 10000 Muslimes would had been killed in the last decade ... ah whatever - I'm asking myself: "How are you able to take yourself serios?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_ptqXqjsZw

__________________
Scientia et potentia humana in idem coincidunt, quia ignoratio causae destituit effectum
Sir Francis Bacon

On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Etruh7Ch8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JkHBC5lDs

He's running out of continents and oceans trying to find those 'peaceful' Muslims.

__________________
"The real question of life after death isn't whether or not it exists, but even if it does, what problems this really solves." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

"A day without sunshine is, you know, night."- Shannon

Bullshit, there are plenty of peacefull muslims in holland. I had to just open my eyes when I leave my home.

There's no continent I can find without unpeacefull christians either (yeah, those were also on Indonesia, wern't to nice either. Don't worry about it, they were fighting the good fight).

I ask you as well: You ignore every on evidence based claim (or just stop responding to it), then claim that one entire uncoherent population group is a bunch of criminals and the other uncoherent population group are saints. And of course everyone who disagrees with you turns out to be a nazi.

How do you take yourself seriously? What happens in your head when you see a fact and it doesn't match your belief system (which has happend quite a few times in this topic examples:

The belief that atheist buisnessmen brought in muslims here.
The belief that the European races are dying out.

You either ignore it or call the other person a nazi. Have you no self critisizm?

PS. Why do you keep posting youtube links? Someone might watch the first one you post ( I didn't, so I checked this one, naturally, I was disappointed) but after that it's just filling space.