The Lisbon Treaty has now been ratified by all 27 European Union (EU) states. This treaty is supposed to give more power to the people, however, the way the treaty has been ratified is very undemocratic, as a majority of EU countries did not hold a referendum!

This is a classical example of the top down roll out of an EU intitive. For a long time now, I have struggled with this approach and believe that there should be more of a bottom up (people engaging) approach toward EU initiatives. EU countries are extremely diverse and if the EU wants more political power - whether a good thing or bad - the EU should work toward engaging people so that a common ground can be found. This should then subsequently form the basis for EU initiatives. It is with this thought in mind that I compiled a short film, which I would like to share on this forum.

The film can be accessed via below link:

YouTube - EU and ME

Your first thread.

Now that you have a topic, this can be discussed.

As I recall the Labour Government in the United Kingdom used semantics to explain why a referendum was not needed there. Ireland on the hand was constitutionally required to hold one.


The fact that governments have been doing that sort of thing (bypassing the referendum process) indicates that they are not confident of passage by the populace.

Perhaps, the example of the Irish can be instructive.

Are you happy about the Lisbon Treaty or are you not ?

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Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them or perish. William Carlos Williams (1883-1963)

Well its just British tradition not to allow people to vote on issues anyway.

Cameron promised, no matter what, to hold a refferendum, and then of course said the system doesn't allow for it now that it is law.

I take pleasure when the British suffer, they deserve what they get.

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Why so harsh?

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.. last night I dreamt I went to Manderley again..

I've just gotten so fed up with the British through the years.

I don't mean it in the sense of them suffering physically and the loss of lives and what not, but the sheer amount of strain that it puts on them gets to a point that eventually i hope they revolt against the government.

At the moment, in the UK, nobody really has a right to complain about Europe. Cameron said he would give that refferendum, which he clearly won't. If they now vote the Torries in come spring next year, then they have only themselves to blame. (What i said above was poorly worded). Hope i've made myself clearer.

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http://georgewbushstore.com/

500 million people for a referendum ?
How´d you do that ?

Especially in countries with a representative Democracy, the most common form of state in the EU ?

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"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse
of a boom brought about by credit (debt) expansion.
The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner
as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit (debt) expansion,
or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved." - Ludwig von Mises

Wrong.

In most representative Democracies, especially the big ones, referenda are not available by constitution.
The only referendum held in these countries was the one to ratify the constitution.
So the people knew exactly, what they agreed to. (With exemtion of course, as always, the Land of the Queen)

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"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse
of a boom brought about by credit (debt) expansion.
The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner
as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit (debt) expansion,
or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved." - Ludwig von Mises

A constitutional provision is not required to hold a referendum. All that is required is that the government say, "Let's find out what the people think. Let's take a vote." And then follow through with a vote.


Which Queen?

The ratification of the Lisbon treaty was far from perfect, but it was democratic. Referendums are no necessity for democratic decisions. How often have the US Americans voted over their constitution?

Where referendums where a constitutional necessity they took place (actually thats only the case in Ireland). I would have liked to see a more direct democratic approach but only one that has realistic chances of giving a possible yes majority a chance of success. 27 national referendums would not have granted such a chance but almost definitely lead to a no in the end, no matter if a majority in Europe would have been in favour or not. (1 no would be enough to bring it down, 1 out of 27)

So lets get over it and have a look what the Lisbon treaty actually does and what I see here is among others a considerable strengthening of the European Parliament. That means my vote for it will count substantially more in the next election. Furthermore the possibility of an EU referendum is to be introduced, where 1 million people signing in a considerable number of memberstates can demand that the Commission is considering possible laws to address a certain issue. (The detailed procedure needs to be made yet, but the treaty makes it obligatory that this is to be done). Thats not an EU wide referendum, but its a great tool to mobilize people across Europe behind an issue and that for the first time will create a new European dynamic. The Commission will be forced much more to listen to a common civil society then. A good step towards more democracy in Europe.

The main problem in the meanwhile in regards to the democratic deficit in the EU is not an institutional anymore, but the ignorance of the average European. The tool of EU referendums could be valuable in getting the Europeans out of their ignorance and start taking part in their role as the democratic sovereign who enforces control over the institutions by making their choice in the EU elections and also in the national elections dependent on how the Commission, Parliament and Council are going to act.

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""Even though our unity is our strength, our diversity remains our wealth,""
Herman Van Rompuy

Well, actually, the Brits should they yes to Lisbon if they are consequent. The Lisbon Treaty enables any EU country to leave the Union. At the moment, they are stuck.

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Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them or perish. William Carlos Williams (1883-1963)

I hope as well that the bit more democratic procedures will give more responsible politicians too - who will stop blaming "Europe" for all unpopular decisions they/ their party have co-signed.

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Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them or perish. William Carlos Williams (1883-1963)

To answer Sucre’s question first, am I happy with the Lisbon treaty?
I am not happy with a particular aspect of the Lisbon Treaty, namely the increased involvement of the European Parliament in the legislative process. EU citizens are simply not ready to give more power to a European parlement which consists of politicians they have never heard of before.

Let me make it clear that I am not against an EU that has more political power, it is just that due to the immense diversity (language, culture, education, etc) of EU countries, it’s citizens do not yet share a common ground politically. To illustrate this with an example, it is highly unlikely a French citizen will say, ‘ I will vote for a British politician to represent my interests’. It would be extremely interesting if this were the case, however in my used example, France and Great Britain do not yet share enough common ground te be united politically, let alone 27 countries! This is exactly where the problem lies and the reason why I made the film EU and ME. In order to achieve this common ground, the EU and national governments should focus there time and energy on intiatives that help people from the different EU states to engage with each other. This will take time and cannot be forced by passing a treaty which a majority of the people can't relate to, let alone knowing what the EU is trying to achieve! In this regard, I must say that I partly agree with Slartibartfas’s comment that this is down to the ignorance of EU citizens, but it is also down to the age old problem of EU politicians not being able to address the right issues and engaging EU citizens.

Stillalive’s question about how to hold a referendum for 500 million people is a good one, but it misses the point, namely the one I made above and that is that countries do not yet share enough common ground to be politically united. Once this has been achieved I do see a referendum being a viable tool to promote democracy. With the technological advances made over the past years and which is set to continue, holding a referendum for 500 million people is not an impossibility and I think will actually become a reality.

Never have heard of them before ? MEPs have a constituency as much as MPs.

You are from the Netherlands ? Here you are :
EP-leden : Ledenlijst

The lists are national, not European. English people vote for English people and French people for French people.

Yes, you are right : it is unlikely that a French citizen will vote for an Englishman he/she has never heard of. This is why the European Parliament has not been organized this way !!!

Maybe you should have informed yourself about the way the European Parliament works before making judgements !

As far as "fame" is concerned, I cannot speak for the Netherlands, but some of the MEPs are extremely famous at national level.

From the French list : Rachida Dati, former Justice Minister of France, Harlem Désir, president of an anti-racism group, Marielle Gallo (wife of writer Max
Gallo, writer), Eva Joly, executing judge against ELF, Michel Barner, also former minister - and that is just for the constituency of the "Ile de France" !

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Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them or perish. William Carlos Williams (1883-1963)

More questions on my side here.

What make you say that people do not share common grounds to be politically united ?

Don't you think that you must start somehere ? Where should you start in your opinion ?


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PS: I am not discussing here the subject of referendums. As far as I am concerned, I do not hold them for democratic but for the best tool of demagogic manipulation.

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Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them or perish. William Carlos Williams (1883-1963)