Thread: NATO allies under pressure to follow US on troop enforcement for Afghanistan

Originally Posted by turnitup5000db

And the purpose of this would be [I]what? ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGWsGyNsw00

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

The fact that KSK was on the ground and relaying intel during this incident adds, IMO, a lot more support to Oberst. Klein's decision.

Correct. Slowly another picture begins to form. German media reports that the true goal of the air strike was to wipe out a convention of Taliban leaders present at the site, that the intelligence came from the secret KSK unit and that the german governement was well informed but kept lying about the incident, trying to paint this as an emergency situation for the german commander, who had seconds to decide wether to blow rolling bombs up or not. This picture seems not to have been acurate.
Several german leaders, including chancellor Merkel and former defence minister Steinmeier now have a severe credibility problem.

Originally Posted by Voland

Correct. Slowly another picture begins to form. German media reports that the true goal of the air strike was to wipe out a convention of Taliban leaders present at the site, that the intelligence came from the secret KSK unit and that the german governement was well informed but kept lying about the incident, trying to paint this as an emergency situation for the german commander, who had seconds to decide wether to blow rolling bombs up or not. This picture seems not to have been acurate.
Several german leaders, including chancellor Merkel and former defence minister Steinmeier now have a severe credibility problem.

Mr. Franz Josef Jung was defence minister in Germany in this time. He also reintroduced in Germany an antiquated kind of "Tapferkeitsorden" (bravery medal) - I call it "Tattergreisorden" (medal from the dodderers) because it's a trick of old senile dodderers - also called "politicians" - to give bravery medals to young idiots - also called "soldiers" - so they are giving their lifes for a handshake and some nice words and other completly crazy and/or maybe even criminal reasons. If a german soldiers is a coward - and it's the right of everyone to be a coward - then he will not become a hero with a bravery medal - and if someone is a hero he doesn't need a gift of bullshit like a bravery medal. Everyone should take care to be able to take a look in the own eyes in a mirror and not to become a monster because he thinks he's fighting against monsters and forgets that there are some decisions only the Allmighty himself is allowed to do and no one else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vtg4MgcM7I

Originally Posted by Voland

Correct. Slowly another picture begins to form. German media reports that the true goal of the air strike was to wipe out a convention of Taliban leaders present at the site, that the intelligence came from the secret KSK unit and that the german governement was well informed but kept lying about the incident, trying to paint this as an emergency situation for the german commander, who had seconds to decide wether to blow rolling bombs up or not. This picture seems not to have been acurate.
Several german leaders, including chancellor Merkel and former defence minister Steinmeier now have a severe credibility problem.

If they have a credibility problem I am not surprised. IMO, the German people as a whole need to grow-up and realize, whether they like it or not, their country is at war. Any way you paint it here, Oberst Klein did the right thing. Had I been on the ground I would have made the same call, in either scenario.

Originally Posted by anobsitar

Mr. Franz Josef Jung was defence minister in Germany in this time. He also reintroduced in Germany an antiquated kind of "Tapferkeitsorden" (bravery medal) - I call it "Tattergreisorden" (medal from the dodderers) because it's a trick of old senile dodderers - also called "politicians" - to give bravery medals to young idiots - also called "soldiers" - so they are giving their lifes for a handshake and some nice words and other completly crazy and/or maybe even criminal reasons. If a german soldiers is a coward - and it's the right of everyone to be a coward - then he will not become a hero with a bravery medal - and if someone is a hero he doesn't need a gift of bullshit like a bravery medal. Everyone should take care to be able to take a look in the own eyes in a mirror and not to become a monster because he thinks he's fighting against monsters and forgets that there are some decisions only the Allmighty himself is allowed to do and no one else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vtg4MgcM7I

ah thats your problem. youre anti military/anti-government. no sense in arguing with you as no amount of rationality will bring you to your senses.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

If they have a credibility problem I am not surprised. IMO, the German people as a whole need to grow-up and realize, whether they like it or not, their country is at war. Any way you paint it here, Oberst Klein did the right thing. Had I been on the ground I would have made the same call, in either scenario.

Please stop the patronising. This is not about growing up and those Germans with half a brain have long ago realized that their country IS at war.
This is about the governement lying about it for populist reasons though, for example about the rules of engagement that already allow the Bundeswehr combat operations and preventive strikes against Taliban ( as has been carried out in this case, opposed to the claims by several posters here that the Bundeswehr would not fight ).
Germans have a reason to feel betrayed and misinformed ( of course they are asking now what else has also been covered up) and this, in combination with miserable political leadership is at the core of the unpopularity of the mission, not pacifism.

Originally Posted by Voland

Please stop the patronising. This is not about growing up and those Germans with half a brain have long ago realized that their country IS at war.
This is about the governement lying about it for populist reasons though, for example about the rules of engagement that already allow the Bundeswehr combat operations and preventive strikes against Taliban ( as has been carried out in this case, opposed to the claims by several posters here that the Bundeswehr would not fight ).
Germans have a reason to feel betrayed and misinformed ( of course they are asking now what else has also been covered up) and this, in combination with miserable political leadership is at the core of the unpopularity of the mission, not pacifism.

Didn't mean to come off as patronising. My apologies.

On a certain level, I feel sorry for the German leadership. The German people, it seems, expect near total transparency when it comes to their miltiary and how it operates. This is, of course, impossible in many situations and totally inadvisable in others. I feel sorry for any German politician who has to make the call about what is and was isn't disclosed.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

Didn't mean to come off as patronising. My apologies.

On a certain level, I feel sorry for the German leadership. The German people, it seems, expect near total transparency when it comes to their miltiary and how it operates. This is, of course, impossible in many situations and totally inadvisable in others. I feel sorry for any German politician who has to make the call about what is and was isn't disclosed.

its the catch 22 of modern, democratic government. military actions must be strictly scrutinised so the people can weigh in. but heavy scrutiny and an effective military have never been on good terms. too much redtape makes for an inefficient military.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

Didn't mean to come off as patronising. My apologies.

On a certain level, I feel sorry for the German leadership. The German people, it seems, expect near total transparency when it comes to their miltiary and how it operates. This is, of course, impossible in many situations and totally inadvisable in others. I feel sorry for any German politician who has to make the call about what is and was isn't disclosed.

Its not necessarily about total transparence.
But the contradictions between the varying official positions about this incident and the reality that now comes out leaves the german public with two possible interpretations : Either the entire governement up till Chancellor Merkel has been lying in parliament and into TV cameras ( and tried to leave the soldiers standing in the rain) or the entire governement has allowed itself to be misled by the military leadership and a couple of bureaucrats. This interpretation has already been proven wrong though since already Oberst Klein himself has in his own report about the incident correctly stated the petrol lorries were irrelevant. What he was after was a chance to wipe out a large part of the local Taliban leadership ( about whose presence at the site german commandos from the KSK unit had informed him).
The version leaked to the press then looked remarkably different.
Leadership also requires honesty and reliability. And that is severely missing in official Germany when it comes to Afghanistan........



Most german papers attacked the governement in pretty strong terms today for NOT admitting that Germany IS at war. Another indiaction that the public is already further than its representatives.........

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...666985,00.html

Originally Posted by reality

ah thats your problem. youre anti military/anti-government. no sense in arguing with you as no amount of rationality will bring you to your senses.

The argument is very easy: It seems it exists a change of political paradigmas in the leadership of Germany what the "Tattergreisorden" shows very well. For Germany this means now to have three important kinds of political criminals and traitors of Germany: Nazi-murderers, Commie-murderers and Nato-murderers. The question is: Who needs 'enemies' if he has 'friends'? The best is to send all german soldiers immediatelly home. Germany is not in war - with no one in the world.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

If they have a credibility problem I am not surprised. IMO, the German people as a whole need to grow-up and realize, whether they like it or not, their country is at war. Any way you paint it here, Oberst Klein did the right thing. Had I been on the ground I would have made the same call, in either scenario.

What Oberst Klein said or not is completly uninteresting - he's maybe only a useful idiot than only a traitor of Germany. It's much more interesting what happened with a lots of informations or why some informations seem not to exist.

Originally Posted by anobsitar

The argument is very easy: It seems it exists a change of political paradigmas in the leadership of Germany what the "Tattergreisorden" shows very well. For Germany this means now to have three important kinds of political criminals and traitors of Germany: Nazi-murderers, Commie-murderers and Nato-murderers. The question is: Who needs 'enemies' if he has 'friends'? The best is to send all german soldiers immediatelly home. Germany is not in war - with no one in the world.

germany is not at war individually. its at war through a group action with NATO an organization of nations which it belongs to and pledges support to in the form of supplies, funds, and troops when a group action is declared. as is the case in this instance.

Originally Posted by anobsitar

Sure you did the same: you are a Nazi and you are not a German.

and there goes the thread. you can't win so you call people a Nazi........ someone knows how to argue