Thread: Israeli navy opens fire on international aid convoy for Gaza : At least ten dead

Originally Posted by fishjoel

Yep...shit like that happens when you, as a group entire, attack in a terrorist manner. I don't know about you but if I was constantly subjected to rockets landing in my back yard, coupled with suicide bombing on market places, you'd be lucky to even have a house to get kicked out of. All of that on top of multiple wars in which the sole intent was to kill every last one of you you really have no point. Sorry, come back later with reality. It's real easy for you to judge sitting all comfortable on your couch.

How do you know those people being evicted had any part in sucide campaigns?

That's collective punishment? What if a bigger power decided to evict all Americans for the illegal invasion of Iraq? Would you accept that as what you deserve?

Originally Posted by fishjoel

Hmmm...everytime I remember a cease fire being violated was done by the hands of Isaerl's neighbors.

Selective memory.

Originally Posted by NYorker

Szaaloth-Utszabot The Book of Jore Dia 17: "A Jew should and
must make a false oath when the goyim [non-Jew] asks if our books
contain anything against them."


Schabbouth Hag (6d): Jews may swear falsely by the use of
subterfuge wording.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Jews are indeed allowed to, by their religion, lie to all of us gentiles.... not a huge surprise that the Israeli government is lying about this flotilla massacre now is it? Don't get me wrong most Jews are hard working, honest, and good people (as most Muslims are) but it's the Zionist/fundamentalist, such as Ehud Barak and Netanyahu that you have to watch out for.... those are the ones that'll lie to you in a heart beat and are the neo-nazi's of our time

they are, for specific questions about religious texts and what they say.
They may also lie through subterfuge IE word something in such a way as to convey a false meaning to the ignorant while still speaking the truth. For instance: I swear to guide you through this dark forest to the lair of the faerie queen, safely. No harm shall befall you while I am your guide. This I swear.
You accept. However you failed to get me to promise to guide you BACK safely as well. So after you meet with the faerie queen I off you and steal all your shit. Good times. (this is just an easily grasped example)

Originally Posted by Aarstad

Tools?

This is all they have, and they're still trying!

Cement and wheelchairs - no rockets, no guns, no nothing. Nice try, though.

Edit:
When they found the saw, did they triumphally yell "AHAAAA!", or what?

Edit 2:
I see they raided the kitchen and found knives! Christ, close call for Israel!

what about all those daggers on the right? especially that nice big one.

Originally Posted by reality

what about all those daggers on the right? especially that nice big one.

Oh, sorry, makes sense now to display kitchen knives and a god damn saw.

What I'm seeing here is a very weak attempt at portraying this as a weapons transport, when only a few of those knives could be made for the purpose of being used as weapons. A very weak attempt indeed.

The land equivalent of "well, we raided the house, and we found knives in the kitchen, and this is our justification in hindsight."

Originally Posted by Aarstad

Oh, sorry, makes sense now to display kitchen knives and a god damn saw.

What I'm seeing here is a very weak attempt at portraying this as a weapons transport, when only a few of those knives could be made for the purpose of being used as weapons. A very weak attempt indeed.

The land equivalent of "well, we raided the house, and we found knives in the kitchen, and this is our justification in hindsight."

the kitchen knives and saw I acknowledge as silly. The fact remains there are several other prohibited items on that ground cloth in the photo.
Someone earlier (think it was one of yall europeans can't remember which one) stated that the only "weapons" found were a pair of swiss army knives. All those knives (sans kitchen cleavers and the two saws) seem to call that into question.

More than that, It doesn't have to be a weapons transport. It couldve been filled with fucking puppies. They tried to run the fucking blockade. Then they resisted. Bad idea with any military organization, much less the fucking IDF.


PS for the bold: GO into your kitchen. Pick up one of the kitchen knives you use to cut up beef. Put your hand on the counter. Press the tip against your skin and draw it lengthwise across your arm. Are you bleeding? Its a sharp, pointy, hard piece of metal with a grip on it. It can be easily employed as a weapon. Do'nt be obtuse, kitchen knives CAN be used as weapons if someone wants to use it for that.

Originally Posted by Aarstad

Oh, sorry, makes sense now to display kitchen knives and a god damn saw.

What I'm seeing here is a very weak attempt at portraying this as a weapons transport, when only a few of those knives could be made for the purpose of being used as weapons. A very weak attempt indeed.

The land equivalent of "well, we raided the house, and we found knives in the kitchen, and this is our justification in hindsight."

The problem isn't that they had knives on board, the problem is that they used those knives and axes, and metal pipes, and slings, to try to kill those soldiers as you can see in the footage. Also two of the soldiers were apparently shot after one or more of the activists took the guns off of wounded soldiers. If you grab the gun from a soldier of policeman don't be surprised if they shoot you.

And apparently some of those activists weren't surprised. In fact they intended from the start to provoke the soldiers and according to some reports told their families that they were going to become martyrs.

3 flotilla fatalities 'dreamt of martyrdom' - Israel News, Ynetnews

all the Israelies had to do was do an on ship inspection, they didn't need to use commandoes to raid the vessels, or use an inspection team of neutrals

Originally Posted by Peace Now

The problem isn't that they had knives on board, the problem is that they used those knives and axes, and metal pipes, and slings, to try to kill those soldiers as you can see in the footage. Also two of the soldiers were apparently shot after one or more of the activists took the guns off of wounded soldiers. If you grab the gun from a soldier of policeman don't be surprised if they shoot you.

And apparently some of those activists weren't surprised. In fact they intended from the start to provoke the soldiers and according to some reports told their families that they were going to become martyrs.

3 flotilla fatalities 'dreamt of martyrdom' - Israel News, Ynetnews

Oh, I don't put it past a bunch of extreme followers to join a convoy of the sort. I'd be surprised if there weren't bad apples among all those people. We have yet to know the full story here - like who fired first, if people were wounded/killed pre-boarding, etc. The newspaper you source has its biases (I read the first report from the Jerusalem post and loled) - and again I stress that I would expect the other extreme to partake in souch a convoy, eager to resort to violence. This undermines a lot of the other people who partook, like - heh - the elderly holocaust survivor.

I have now decided to reserve judgement regarding the violence and who was in the right, as extremely conflicting reports keep coming in. It is more intricate than what was indicated initially. Don't be surprised if I by the end of this side with the people on the boats, though, because that's where I see this heading. Defending one self against authority is in no way against my principles. But... we'll just have to see. Also, in stressful situations, people tend to experience what's going on differently. I should have been more critical from the outset, but this was a difficult matter to wrap one's head around hours after the incident.

If the cargo did consist of medicine, wheelchairs, cement and other needed (by Israel prohibited) cargo, though - Israel is on the losing end of this ongoing propaganda battle. Which this probably was intended to be from the very beginning.

Eagerly awaiting word from Henning Mankell.

Nina e: "The problem isn't that they had knives on board"... See, my point is that it is absolutely laughable that this is portrayed as a point, as you can see in the pictures posted.

FYI, more background on the blockade, including Egypt's role.

2007?present blockade of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yet again Hamas is looking out for the Palestinian people :rolleyes:

IDF: Hamas stops flotilla aid delivered by israel - CNN.com

Originally Posted by Aarstad

Oh, sorry, makes sense now to display kitchen knives and a god damn saw.

What I'm seeing here is a very weak attempt at portraying this as a weapons transport, when only a few of those knives could be made for the purpose of being used as weapons. A very weak attempt indeed.

The land equivalent of "well, we raided the house, and we found knives in the kitchen, and this is our justification in hindsight."

It's not in any way being portrayed as a weapons transport.

It doesn't need to be.

It ran a blockade in international waters and was boarded. Perfectly legal.

The weapons, and the videos of their use, demonstrate the legitimization of deadly force on the part of the Sayeret.

To use your analogy, think of it as kind of the same as the police entering a home, with a perfectly legal warrant, having to fight off a knife wielding suspect, and then later showing pictures of the weapon (the knife) in order to justify deadly or less-than-deadly force against the knife wielder.

The weapons are only a side-show. They're proof that the folks on that boat had less than completely altruistic motives. They weren't the reason the ship was boarded and they weren't needed as a reason to board the ship.

Well, this was certainly a monumentally stupid decision by Israel. I guess when you vote in extremists to power this is what you get...

Andrew