Thread: Israeli navy opens fire on international aid convoy for Gaza : At least ten dead

Originally Posted by Voland

Anyway my point was not about a specific law broken abut about Israel not acting on base of law as claimed......

They are acting on their interpretation of the law, right or wrong, and not yours. THAT is the issue here. Israel does let aid through and has done ever since the blockade started. Is it enough? I don't think so. But that isn't Israel's problem.

Originally Posted by Rude Boy

Really? Israel is not a member of the UN and subject to its charter? Interesting.

So, when Israel cited UN Security Council Resolution 1559 as justification for the invasion of Lebanon, they were invoking a resolution she wasn't a signatory to? Really?

We are talking about the sea rights convention, which Israel never signed.

Like the US, for example, every resolution the UN passes needs to be ratified by the Israel Knesset (sp?). If the resolution isn't ratified then it doesn't apply to them. Israel, like every nation that joins the UN, is allowed to opt out of certain UN standards.

Originally Posted by Rude Boy

Regardless of their declared intent, they were under the auspices of providing humanitarian relief, and as such, and backed by international law, didn't have to recognize the legitimacy of Israel's illegal blockade - but to make matters even worse, Israel has no legal standing, whatsoever, to intercept a non-contracting party in international waters. None.

Doesn't matter. The second they declared their intent they threw out any pretence at neutrality.

Originally Posted by Rude Boy

Your premise is flawed. By being a UN member nation, and a signatory to its charter, it is obliged to follow international laws and conventions when it pertains to international situations. Israeli law doesn't apply to foreign entities anymore than if Hamas declared that its laws apply to Israeli citizens. Your logic is extremely tenuous, and that's being very, very generous.

No, they aren't. They, like any member nation of the UN, are allowed to opt out of resolutions and conventions as they see fit. They simply have to make it known. In the case of the conventions of the sea, they did.

EDIT: Just a note, the United States hasn't ratified UNCLOS either.

Originally Posted by Rude Boy

An American citizen was shot in the head four times, and once to the chest. Others are just now coming out with accounts that they were physically beaten while in IDF custody.

we'll see what kind of legs this has after his body is examined. I'd like to see pics of the body, a full forensics work up should done, who said he got shot 4 times to the head? exactly? Seriously, that doesn't even make sense.


and no really??? you mean folks are claiming they were beat up? get out of town!!! :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Voland

The claim that Israel allows humanitarian aid into Gaza on a base other than arbitrary and very insufficient even to cover basic needs is for example contradicted by the United Nations and also by parts of the israeli press . In fact Gaza is a humanitarian desaster.

A Special Place in Hell / The Second Gaza War: Israel lost at sea - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


OCHA oPt UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory


Damning Report: Gaza Humanitarian Crisis Worst in 40 Years - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

That is not exactly what the Geneva convention means when it comes to responsibility for the population of an occupied territory.
And the Law of the Sea convention permits military operations against other nations ships in international waters only in very specific circumstances ( for example to enforce UN resolutions), but certainly not to enforce a national blocade that is NOT backed by the UN..
And even if Israel did not sign the cited treaties it would still prove my point right. Israel cannot reject international law and at the same time claim to act based on it, right ?

this has zip to do with it....... and is the usual distraction. militants and others with shady radical Muslim backgrounds put together the fleet, packed it with sympathetic persons and reporters ( the other 5 ships had NO issues, gee whiz huh?) wow a mystery writer? No shit, am I impressed or what? :rolleyes:Whats a matter Sean Penn wasn't available?

They set sail, the supplies issue was/were/are/is bullshit, you know it, I know it. Lets stop with the silly facade already....its embarrassing.


Is living in gaza harsh? hell yeah.why?we all know why. we may not agree, but its been beat to death.

Originally Posted by Voland

Israels right to control materials and also to stop ships has not been under serious dispute here. Its right to attack ships in international waters, use deadly force and claim to act based on international law has been. The Geneva convention piece demands "free passage" for aid goods by the way.

Read it again:

The obligation of a High Contracting Party to allow the free passage of the consignments indicated in the preceding paragraph is subject to the condition that this Party is satisfied that there are no serious reasons
for fearing:

and

the Power which permits their free passage shall have the right to prescribe the technical arrangements under which such passage is allowed.

I agree its under dispute, but so far only Ive provided evidence as to their full right to do what they did. Youll have to provide some facts if you want to back up your side.

Originally Posted by Voland

You are really not getting it ? If Israel rejects international law it cannot claim its acts have a foundation in it. It is placing itself outside of it.
And israeli laws are laws IN Israel. Not on the open sea. Just as US law does not apply in Luxembourg.

No, you are not getting it. They are not claiming foundation in law, but rather the absence of law. They are free to do whatever they want unless theyve agreed to otherwise or someone stops them by force. Israeli laws apply wherever Israel can enforce them. Which consequently includes 82 miles out.

Originally Posted by Voland

To leave the sea rights convention out of this and focus on Geneva :
As I said a lot depends on the status that the Gaza entity is supposed to have.
Does Israel regard it as an enemy state than it has every right to impose a blocade against it, build a wall around it, etc. This would imply an indirect recognition of a palestinian state though and attacks on ships not recognizing Israels embargo could be counted as an act of war. Just as if the US would attack european ships going to Cuba.
Does Israel regard Gaza as an occupied territory however it is responsible for the peoples welfare. It has every right to inspect and control but is obliged to let everything that is clearly for aid through on a regular and not arbitary base. The Geneva convention does neither cover a blocade against a territory that is occupied nor deadly force to push back aid shipments.
Anyway my point was not about a specific law broken abut about Israel not acting on base of law as claimed......

Israel built a wall around ISRAEL. And as I showed the Geneva convention does indeed cover a blockade, or rather the passage of equipment, and that Israel has the right to decide what gets through and how. WHich is a blockade.

I thought I'd add Uri Avnery's of Gush Shalom's perspective on this (as usual, he is spot on).

A CRIME AGAINST ISRAEL

June 1, 2010

What happened yesterday is a crime. A crime against the State of Israel.

A band of foolhardy, irresponsible and power-drunk persons decided on an action that was bound to result in people being killed and injured.

No sensible person in Israel or abroad will buy the collection of lies and pretexts with which those responsible are trying to justify themselves. The more so since no one of the victims has been allowed to speak.

Not only was this operation immoral, but it is also turning against us the last of our sympathizers in the world and adding strength to those who call for a boycott on Israel.

There is only one way to limit the damage:

-- TO CALL for the immediate appointment of an international board of inquiry to investigate the event.

-- TO LIFT at once the immoral and illegal blockade against the million and a half inhabitants of the Gaza Strip.

-- TO IMPLEMENT the proposed prisoner exchange and free Gilad Shalit.

Huge damage has been done. We must try to repair it as best as possible.

GUSH SHALOM

(Large special ad published in Hebrew in Haaretz today, June 1)

Gush Shalom (Israeli Peace Bloc)
Uri Avnery is a peace activist and former member of the terrorist Jewish Gang, The Irgun.

More from Gush Shalom here:

Gush Shalom - Israeli Peace Bloc

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

We are talking about the sea rights convention, which Israel never signed.

Like the US, for example, every resolution the UN passes needs to be ratified by the Israel Knesset (sp?). If the resolution isn't ratified then it doesn't apply to them. Israel, like every nation that joins the UN, is allowed to opt out of certain UN standards.

I'm not talking about the "[S]ea [R]ights [sic] Convention."

Doesn't matter. The second they declared their intent they threw out any pretence at neutrality.

It doesn't matter that they declared their intent at all. That's irrelevant.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

No, they aren't. They, like any member nation of the UN, are allowed to opt out of resolutions and conventions as they see fit. They simply have to make it known. In the case of the conventions of the sea, they did.

EDIT: Just a note, the United States hasn't ratified UNCLOS either.

Again, I'm not talking about the UNCLOS. You've mistaken me for someone else.

Originally Posted by Rude Boy

Again, I'm not talking about the UNCLOS. You've mistaken me for someone else.

Then your position has even less merit. Israel did nothing illegal here.

Originally Posted by Imperator

we'll see what kind of legs this has after his body is examined. I'd like to see pics of the body, a full forensics work up should done, who said he got shot 4 times to the head? exactly? Seriously, that doesn't even make sense.


and no really??? you mean folks are claiming they were beat up? get out of town!!! :rolleyes:

We'll have the Coroner's report for you right away, doctor.

I mean really. What? You'd like to see this and that. Really? Okay. Wait until the information gets out then.

I was just stating what others on the flotilla have said (more than one person has corroborated it) regarding a 19 year old American citizen being shot in the head four times, and once to the chest. If you want to wait, I don't see who's stopping you.