Thread: Israeli navy opens fire on international aid convoy for Gaza : At least ten dead

Originally Posted by pramjockey

I've got no problem with that.


However, the Israelis have easy access to food, medicine, etc. They are actively working to deny these things to the Palestinians. They haven't figured out yet that they won't defeat the radicalism by starving the Palestinians.

I have not seen unrwa make a claim as to supplies of medicines , food etc, being denied access to gaza, their complaint is always 'timley access'. I have been to their page ala general bitching an griping over living conditions etc. yes I see that and agree, and have said so, gaza is a harsh place. They also helped to make it harsh themselves.

You do realize pram that one one level the hamas leadership doesn't want to the place to turn into a shangri-la, no matter what they say, right?

Israel has to block a lot goods to protect itself and at times services, to protect themselves and attempt to discredit hamas, ( which I think is a loser btw as you allude).

I have seen complainants from the unrwa re: donated supplies as gazan 'officials' pillaged ware houses, so as to sell and/or give them to favored sects etc. And in the end, they have not sworn off their mission statement, death to jews all jews and no israel.



This in no way detracts form the point and conundrum. How does gaza go from thugocracy to a place where in they can at least exercise some semblance of a state, even if its a dysfunctional economic one...hell there are plenty of those...

Originally Posted by Andrewl

Your point would be well taken and quite correct had these boats shown up unannounced on the their way in to Gaza - that would certainly be a situation in which i would expect the IDF to engage with force directly.

However, this trip to bring humanitarian aid and challenge the blockade was well publicized and transparent before the event, backed by well known aid groups around the world, and even approved of at the highest levels by allies of israel.

I almost have sympathy for the IDF in this case, to be ordered into a political powder keg by israel just so the presumed "authority" of Netanyahu's government would not be challenged openly.

The security risk here was minimal at best, Israel acted very foolishly.

Andrew

Yes the israelis really shouldve waited for them to cross the line just so no one would have a leg to stand on. that wouldve been smarter. Then they shouldve warned them to abandon ship because they were just going to blow the fuck out of the ship (we told you to comply by diverting to the port BEFORE you crossed the line. You did not comply, these are the consequences. You have 1 hour to get into lifeboats. Then we get to do a live fire excercise on your boat. If youre still on after an hour... well..... you know what happens when you don't comply.) in punishment for trying make them kow tow to that BS.


For the bold:
Which is exactly why they took them in International waters. Because they'd already declared their intent to do it and were on the way to. They were civilians that got into a who's got the bigger dick contest with one of the most well armed and hair trigger (with pretty good reason given day to day circumstances) militaries on the planet. Thats acting foolishly.

Let me put it to you this way Andy: I think that drug prohibition is an intolerable affront to my liberty and pursuit of happiness. I find it to be illegal (read unconstitutional) as well. That doesn't mean that if I announce my intention to actively break this law whilst holding a parade down main street that I get to resist arrest or questioning by law enforcement if they find my statements to be probable cause for a pat down. (i know i know its not a perfect analogy. But its an analogy).
Seriously. If they had nothing to hide and were purely humanitarian (which gets through the blockade after a search) then they shouldn't have tried to run the blockade at all. They antagonized the IDF and they payed the price for it. Meddle not in the affairs of dragons for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Originally Posted by MattInFla

As, largely, are the Israelis the rockets get shot at.

If we're going to count the innocent, let's count them all....

Religiously motivated fundamentalist land thieves vs refugees. I don't quite see the equivalence. (excluding the children of course).

Andrew

Originally Posted by Renton

enjoy that lovely motor sir...:rolleyes:

As for the shooting I agree...how do you shoot someone four times in the head?...if he's in the process of attacking you then managing one shot to the head would be impressive, unless your Riggs out of Leathal Weapon or something...four times suggests he was shot after he was down (in which case it was a brutal execution: but then Israel wouldn't have handed the body/evidence back to be placed under international scrutiny), or the coroners have misinterpreted the wounds.

19 is too young to die either way

or 4 guys shot him at the same time. or someone used an automatic weapon thats fairly accurate (like the Tavor which is standard israeli military equipment. bullpup assault rifle highly accurate, short enough for close quarters, and very powerful with built in red dot sighting ) coupled with military grade training... 4 shots from a burst isn't unheard of. especially if the guy was point blank (within 10 feet is i believe where point blank starts, correct me if im' wrong) and charging you. just line it up and squeeze, you can't miss.

Originally Posted by MattInFla

As, largely, are the Israelis the rockets get shot at.

If we're going to count the innocent, let's count them all....

Who the hell gave Israel the right to exist and by what authority ?

Israel is the occupier. Palestinians the defenders No ?

Gold rules Yes ?

Originally Posted by skeptic1

Who the hell gave Israel the right to exist and by what authority ?

The thousands of Israeli soldiers to died defending their nation. Israel earned the right to exist, IMO, by paying in blood. The Palestinians have been trying to do the same. The difference, however, is that the Israelis have and continue to win. They seem to simply want it more.

Originally Posted by reality

or 4 guys shot him at the same time. or someone used an automatic weapon thats fairly accurate (like the Tavor which is standard israeli military equipment. bullpup assault rifle highly accurate, short enough for close quarters, and very powerful with built in red dot sighting ) coupled with military grade training... 4 shots from a burst isn't unheard of. especially if the guy was point blank (within 10 feet is i believe where point blank starts, correct me if im' wrong) and charging you. just line it up and squeeze, you can't miss.

eecchhh......don't want to get in the way of one of those

4 shots from a burst, yeah, maybe...but wouldn't you have to set it to auto first...fully automatic fire against civilians, even carrying bars or baseball bats?...seems like over-kill man...or doesn't it have a single shot capability (just asking, don't know)?

...and in case your wondering, if someone came at me with a bar or bat and I had something like a Bullpup to defend myself with I'd not hesitate in using it...worry about the fall out after I survived...

...but then again I'm not an elite Israeli special forces trooper, hand picked as being among the best of the best, with tens of thousands of Israeli shekles spent on training me to defend myself against someone with a iron bar coming at me, and to remain calm in the face of the enemy...

...when I saw those embarassing pictures of the special forces guys getting their ass kicked by people with hand weapons I kinda expected them to pull off some snazzy Jason Bourne unarmed combat move sh*t, dissarm them, and say tough luck Ali, your nicked...instead...straight to the automatic gunfire...

Can't blame them, would have done the same, but expected something better from these super soldiers many here consider them to be....could have sent in the regular grunts and got the same results

Originally Posted by Renton

Can't blame them, would have done the same, but expected something better from these super soldiers many here consider them to be....could have sent in the regular grunts and got the same results

IMO, the fact that they were pushed around like that only further's the point that they were using restraint at first, but were then simply pushed to far.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

The thousands of Israeli soldiers to died defending their nation. Israel earned the right to exist, IMO, by paying in blood. The Palestinians have been trying to do the same. The difference, however, is that the Israelis have and continue to win. They seem to simply want it more.

Yup, Israel has the right to exist and each day, week, month and year they continue to exist strengthens their right...

...how many nations on earth doesn't have at least one claim on it's land by some other nation?...we still want the US eastern sea-board back guys...

Originally Posted by Renton

eecchhh......don't want to get in the way of one of those

4 shots from a burst, yeah, maybe...but wouldn't you have to set it to auto first...fully automatic fire against civilians, even carrying bars or baseball bats?...seems like over-kill man...or doesn't it have a single shot capability (just asking, don't know)?

...and in case your wondering, if someone came at me with a bar or bat and I had something like a Bullpup to defend myself with I'd not hesitate in using it...worry about the fall out after I survived...

...but then again I'm not an elite Israeli special forces trooper, hand picked as being among the best of the best, with tens of thousands of Israeli shekles spent on training me to defend myself against someone with a iron bar coming at me, and to remain calm in the face of the enemy...

...when I saw those embarassing pictures of the special forces guys getting their ass kicked by people with hand weapons I kinda expected them to pull off some snazzy Jason Bourne unarmed combat move sh*t, dissarm them, and say tough luck Ali, your nicked...instead...straight to the automatic gunfire...

Can't blame them, would have done the same, but expected something better from these super soldiers many here consider them to be....could have sent in the regular grunts and got the same results

Its got single, 3 shot burst and full auto. Were I being charged by a Mob I would personally be using full auto.





Let me introduce you to this thing called fiction. Jason Bourne is FICTION. THAT SHIT DOESN"T HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE. In real life, you give a soldier a good reason to shoot you (say youre charging him with a wrathful countenance with a couple dozen other folks all armed with clubs and knives) he's going to put several rounds in you and move to the next target. He's not a cop. He's not riot police. He's an elite, special forces soldier, a stone cold killer. Thats his job.


All the kung fu BS you see in hollywood doesn't take place in a situation like that either. Its always only when he's fighting a couple of guys in an enclosed space, and he usually has the drop on them. You don't jiujitsu an enraged mob bent on tearing you limb from limb into submission. You shoot them. Seriously dude.


The regular grunts wouldve had more casualties, on both sides. In fact pretty much all the passengers would more than likely be fish food.

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

IMO, the fact that they were pushed around like that only further's the point that they were using restraint at first, but were then simply pushed to far.

...yeah, showed that they were human like the rest of us...but they went from zero to a hundred in a flash of an eye...being almost passive and taking the blows to possibly full automatic fire from machine guns...don't know, not from the military, but aren't special forces supposed to be the most level headed of you and therefore in control always?

Originally Posted by Renton

Yup, Israel has the right to exist and each day, week, month and year they continue to exist strengthens their right...

...how many nations on earth doesn't have at least one claim on it's land by some other nation?...we still want the US eastern sea-board back guys...

you can't have it :P . we gave you two tries to take it already and I think the two times we helped yall out of world wars (not so much number 1, but number 2 most surely) kinda makes us square lol

Originally Posted by Renton

...yeah, showed that they were human like the rest of us...but they went from zero to a hundred in a flash of an eye...being almost passive and taking the blows to possibly full automatic fire from machine guns...don't know, not from the military, but aren't special forces supposed to be the most level headed of you and therefore in control always?

Indeed. However, why are you asuming they snaped? Could have just as easily been an order from above to stop playing nice. Or an individual soldier could have make the judgement call that his life, or that of his fellow soldiers, is in danger and used deadly force.