Thread: Israeli navy opens fire on international aid convoy for Gaza : At least ten dead

Originally Posted by Renton

I think most people realise that all that fighting stuff is pure Hollywood fiction, but thanks anyway for pointing that out (including myself - I live in a country where street fighting is the national past-time, and even those who have fought for their country in martial arts/boxing when placed in a real fight ignore their training and fight dirty; the average fight takes twenty second before someones down, and if someones got a knife and you don't, even if your the best fighter in town, you run like sh*t out of your butt after having a tandoori curry and six pints of Danish lager the night before)...but there are certainly many on this forum who seem to think the sun shines out of the Israeli defence forces butt and they are near invicible...and as such taking out those armed with bats and clubs without killing them should have been possible...guess some need a reality check.

Theyre badasses, yes. They aren't somehow hollywood characters in an action movie possessed of super speed (you know so they could easily subdue an entire MOB by hand). No one has suggested that the IDF shouldve been able to take them down using only their scrotums and mad kungfu skills except for you.. Thats just fucking ridiculous.

Originally Posted by skeptic1

That method of argument is of a Jewish nature. "If facts do not support one try to discredit the opposition." :rolleyes:

dude really?

Originally Posted by reality

thats how ANYONE wouldve reacted. I have a gun. I'm being physically overwhelmed by superior numbers. I'm going to thin those numbers out with my gun.

Exactly...predictable, human reaction and completely understandable...and also highlights my previous point made a day or so ago that those who planned this assault and sent them in to that type of situation initially armed the way they were completely 'bawsed it up', resulting in elite troops being made to look ill prepared and out of their depth...mana from heaven for those opposed to Irael's existance.

Originally Posted by Renton

Exactly...predictable, human reaction and completely understandable...and also highlights my previous point made a day or so ago that those who planned this assault and sent them in to that type of situation initially armed the way they were completely 'bawsed it up', resulting in elite troops being made to look ill prepared and out of their depth...mana from heaven for those opposed to Irael's existance.

the guns were there for just this sort of situation. You don't subdue unruly people with paintball guns. You threaten them with lethal force and the first guy to try something anyway gets one in the skull.

It was a standard boarding party. They ALWAYS go in like that.

Originally Posted by reality

Theyre badasses, yes. They aren't somehow hollywood characters in an action movie possessed of super speed (you know so they could easily subdue an entire MOB by hand). No one has suggested that the IDF shouldve been able to take them down using only their scrotums and mad kungfu skills except for you.. Thats just fucking ridiculous.

The Israeli military planners has such supreme confidence in their soldiers ability to do just that that they thought that they could subdue a boat full of what the Israeli government had already classed as terrorist sympathysers hell bent on martyrdom, with just paint ball guns and their fists (not scrotums...ugh)...why just have a go at me when the Israeli military are just as guilty of over expentancy from their troops as I?

Twenty five years or so ago a small detachment of SAS soldiers, armed with wooden battons and browning side arms as back up, stormed a prison wing in the middle of a riot holding some of the UK's toughest hombres, all armed to the teeth with knifes, iron bars and clubs, to rescue a prison guard held hostage.

Not only did they rescue the guard unharmed, they kicked the prisoners butts in hand to hand combat, secured the prison, and were gone within twenty minutes, all without having to remove their side arms from their holsters...such things can be done dude.

Originally Posted by reality

the guns were there for just this sort of situation. You don't subdue unruly people with paintball guns. You threaten them with lethal force and the first guy to try something anyway gets one in the skull.

It was a standard boarding party. They ALWAYS go in like that.

So...what were the paintball guns for again if not to subdue unruly people?

...and if they always go in like that then doesn't that fit the definition of being preditable

...and if you try anything against the IDF, you get a bullet in the skull...your giving those here against your arguement plenty of ammunition man

Originally Posted by Renton

The Israeli military planners has such supreme confidence in their soldiers ability to do just that that they thought that they could subdue a boat full of what the Israeli government had already classed as terrorist sympathysers hell bent on martyrdom, with just paint ball guns and their fists (not scrotums...ugh)...why just have a go at me when the Israeli military are just as guilty of over expentancy from their troops as I?

Twenty five years or so ago a small detachment of SAS soldiers, armed with wooden battons and browning side arms as back up, stormed a prison wing in the middle of a riot holding some of the UK's toughest hombres, all armed to the teeth with knifes, iron bars and clubs, to rescue a prison guard held hostage.

Not only did they rescue the guard unharmed, they kicked the prisoners butts in hand to hand combat, secured the prison, and were gone within twenty minutes, all without having to remove their side arms from their holsters...such things can be done dude.

At what point were they mobbed by incredibly superior numbers? You know, totally surrounded and getting beaten on? O they weren't which is why they never drew their side arms? o ok.
also, link please.

The paintball guns were there to give them an option to use BEFORE lethal force if possible. A paintball gun won't stop a mob hell bent on killing you.

Originally Posted by Renton

So...what were the paintball guns for again if not to subdue unruly people?

...and if they always go in like that then doesn't that fit the definition of being preditable

...and if you try anything against the IDF, you get a bullet in the skull...your giving those here against your arguement plenty of ammunition man

its called Standard Operating Procedure. All militaries and police forces have it. Its what they do in X situation.


If you try to kill ANYONE with a gun, much less a trained special forces operative for christ's sake, THEY ARE GOING TO SHOOT YOU. Thats basic common sense dude. Its not unique to the IDF.

Originally Posted by reality

At what point were they mobbed by incredibly superior numbers? You know, totally surrounded and getting beaten on? O they weren't which is why they never drew their side arms? o ok.
also, link please.

The paintball guns were there to give them an option to use BEFORE lethal force if possible. A paintball gun won't stop a mob hell bent on killing you.

...but... dude...they didn't get mobbed by incredibly superior numbers because they planned it to be so...the Isreali's tell us on the one hand that they were totaly surprised by the reaction of peace protesters, but on the other hand tell us that they already knew before hand that many on board wanted to be martyred rather than have the ship turned around and not reach Gazza...

Where the troops sent in their to face pacifist peace protesters, or told to expect terrorist martyrs?...which was it?...


link dude -

SAS - Operations - Peterhead Prison

Originally Posted by reality

They were in control. They shot one guy 4 times in the head, that takes control and presence of mind.


How about this: What would you expect them to do? Wave their magic wands and non lethally subdue everyone an entire angry mob bent on ripping them to pieces and beating them to death? Slap box? what?

I say IF....look, double taps are the trng. standard amongst world wide spec-ops, anything else is waste of material and time. I'd like to see a head that still holds any semblance of shape after 2 shots. in the end its all crap, never should have happened...

Originally Posted by reality

its called Standard Operating Procedure. All militaries and police forces have it. Its what they do in X situation.


If you try to kill ANYONE with a gun, much less a trained special forces operative for christ's sake, THEY ARE GOING TO SHOOT YOU. Thats basic common sense dude. Its not unique to the IDF.

...totaly agreed that is SOP for the IDF...and if I may say so again...because it's SOP it's totaly predictable...but they didn't fire at first but took the beating, so what was their first instructions...go in and take control of peace protesters?...which suggests that those briefing them got it wrong as Israel stated they already knew many on board wanted to be martyrd and would fight...they should have planned accordingly...they can't have it both ways.

I'm not actually criticising the particular soldiers here...just pointing out that I believe they had bad intel, their planners chose the wrong initial kit for them, and that they reacted exactly the same way anyone would, special forces or not, in a human and predictable way that the enemies of Israel easily foresaw...and used to their advantage

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

The thousands of Israeli soldiers to died defending their nation. Israel earned the right to exist, IMO, by paying in blood. The Palestinians have been trying to do the same. The difference, however, is that the Israelis have and continue to win. They seem to simply want it more.

Technically it was the UN in 1947.

Originally Posted by Imperator

I say IF....look, double taps are the trng. standard amongst world wide spec-ops, anything else is waste of material and time. I'd like to see a head that still holds any semblance of shape after 2 shots. in the end its all crap, never should have happened...

I'm sure what happened to this guy will come out in the wash, as well as to the others...and certainly it could easily have been a short burst of automatic fire just as suggested above I guess, taken legitimately in self defence.

We'll just have to wait and see what the Israeli investigation reports.